onel0126
Bead mumbler
These 11 minutes could change your life. How can you choose to believe the word of God in one book of the Bible but not in another?
http://youtu.be/bJjW3LXuHzo
http://youtu.be/bJjW3LXuHzo
Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist
- Thread starter onel0126
- Start date
Dondi
Dondi
A word about John 6.
John 6:63 - "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
If the flesh profiteth nothing, then eating on any actual food profiteth nothing. The Bread of Life which is alluded here is the Word of God. The bible is replete with the injunction to obey the Word of God. (see Deuteronomy 6:2-3, 6-9, Joshua 1:8, Isaiah 55:11).
Now observe our text in John 6:27-29:
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Again, Jesus is not speaking of a literal physical food. How do we know that? Because of the disciple's reply, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" The disciples reply echos the understanding of what Jesus said two chapters back, the work of God. And that work of God is to believe on Him whom God sent. It speaks nothing of the the Eucharest.
In John 4:34, after Jesus' disciples asked Him if He wanted something to eat, He said, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
So in going back to John 6:56, "For my flesh is meat indeed..." we now know that 'meat' means doing the will of God....via the Word of God.
Jesus in His temptation said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." - Matthew 4:4
Where is it written? In Deuteronomy 8:3:
"And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."
And isn't it interesting that manna is precisely the topic in John 6. "Our fathers did eat manna in the desert" (verse 31) Any Jew with knowledge of the Torah would connect what Jesus said in John 6:31-33 with Deut. 8:3.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Question, where was this understanding pre 16th century? Where are the "early Protestant fathers" proclaiming this understanding of John 6?
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Dondi
Dondi
Augustine (354-430): "They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" For He had said to them, "Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life." "What shall we do?" they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent." This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate 25, §12.
Augustine (354-430): In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth His flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man taketh worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate 26, John 6:41-59, §18.
Gelasius, Bishop of Rome (492-496): Surely the sacrament we take of the Lord´s body and blood is a divine thing, on account of which, and by the same we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance of the bread and wine does not cease to be. And certainly the image and similitude of Christ´s body and blood are celebrated in the action of the mysteries. (Tractatus de duabus naturis 14 [PL Sup.-III. 773]) See Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, 3 Vols., trans. George Musgrave Giger and ed. James T. Dennison (Phillipsburg: reprinted by Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1992), Vol. 3, p. 479 (XVIII.xxvi.xx).
Edward J. Kilmartin, S.J.: According to Gelasius, the sacraments of the Eucharist communicate the grace of the principal mystery. His main concern, however, is to stress, as did Theodoret, the fact that after the consecration the elements remain what they were before the consecration.][ Edward J. Kilmartin, S.J., "œThe Eucharistic Theology of Pope Gelasius I: A Nontridentine View" in Studia Patristica, Vol. XXIX (Leuven: Peeters, 1997), p. 288.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Col. 3:16
Augustine (354-430): In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth His flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man taketh worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate 26, John 6:41-59, §18.
Gelasius, Bishop of Rome (492-496): Surely the sacrament we take of the Lord´s body and blood is a divine thing, on account of which, and by the same we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance of the bread and wine does not cease to be. And certainly the image and similitude of Christ´s body and blood are celebrated in the action of the mysteries. (Tractatus de duabus naturis 14 [PL Sup.-III. 773]) See Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, 3 Vols., trans. George Musgrave Giger and ed. James T. Dennison (Phillipsburg: reprinted by Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1992), Vol. 3, p. 479 (XVIII.xxvi.xx).
Edward J. Kilmartin, S.J.: According to Gelasius, the sacraments of the Eucharist communicate the grace of the principal mystery. His main concern, however, is to stress, as did Theodoret, the fact that after the consecration the elements remain what they were before the consecration.][ Edward J. Kilmartin, S.J., "œThe Eucharistic Theology of Pope Gelasius I: A Nontridentine View" in Studia Patristica, Vol. XXIX (Leuven: Peeters, 1997), p. 288.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Col. 3:16
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Did Tertullian and Augustine deny the real presence?
http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/did-tertullian-and-st-augustine-deny-the-real-presence
Early Christians in the real presence:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
Dondi
Dondi
[the second link didn't work]
There is a vast difference in saying that there is the Presence of Jesus during the Lord's Supper and saying that the wafer actually turns into the body of Jesus. Lutherans, for example, believe in what is called "sacramental union", as Martin Luther describes it thus:
"... we do not make Christ's body out of the bread ... Nor do we say that his body comes into existence out of the bread [i.e. impanation]. We say that his body, which long ago was made and came into existence, is present when we say, "This is my body." For Christ commands us to say not, "Let this become my body," or, "Make my body there," but, "This is my body." - Luther's Works
Other Protestant groups believe in what is know as "consubstantiation", where the nature of Christ in the elements are described metaphysically. It holds that during the sacrament, the fundamental "substance" of the body and blood of Christ are present alongside the substance of the bread and wine, which remain present.
I don't know if subscribe to either of those, but I most assuredly don't subscribe to the Catholic position.
What is the real presence? When we share in the Lord's Supper or Eucharist, is that supposed to somehow impart Christ's body and blood to us so that Christ can live in us? Does one need to continually do this?
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Amused_despair
New Member
In the words of the great philosopher, Willie Wonka: "that would be cannibalism, and cannibalism is wrong"
hotcoffee
New Member
Here's what it is to me....
When I was about 12 my I did the church stuff and I went to the alter.... and the day I was Baptized, my mother was Baptized the same day.
I read the scriptures in the NIV.... IMHO.. When I think about what you call the Eucharist... I can imagine
I see Jesus at the table with those who had been with Him all along. It's the feast of the Passover. It's a strong Jewish holiday. It's been important since the beginning. It's the feast to commemorate the slaying of the first born. Children died. The first born of every family who did not paint their door poste with the blood of the lamb.... from zero to 100 died that night. Even the first born of every animal lay dead the next morning.
Jesus was well acquainted with the holiday. I figure John said He was with His Heavenly Father when the whole thing went down. If John said it... well I believe doctors right now.
We know He could read what people were thinking. The woman at the well proves that. So He knew He was among friends... including Judas. People of His choosing were all around Him and He was the center of attention. He is after all the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and the only begotten Son of God.
I imagine this.....
The room went silent. Every single person in that room wanted to hear what He was going to say next. He reached out and picked up a piece of the unleavened bread. If He was here now.... He'd probably reach out for a home made flat bread because it's tradition and it's important.... it's the Passover.
I imagine He would say it this way now because He was there when the wheat was first formed by His Heavenly Father. Now He had tasted it. Now He knew how the grain strengthened His body after hours and hours of walking and talking.
Then I imagine He would say....
I imagine He would say it this way now because He was there when the water was separated from the land. No doubt His Heavenly Father showed Him how to cup His hands just so. I can just see Them enjoying the first taste of cool clear water. I can just see the smiles. Awesome....
"Whenever you eat bread and drink wine, Remember Me..... It's important. You have to continue as I've shown you. You have to try to do it. Remember, I'll make sure you have the Holy Spirit inside you as your conscience. You'll know when you're wandering off the path better than anyone. You'll be tempted. Respond as you have been taught and you'll be fine. I'll see you soon."
"It's time I go home. Heaven is calling my name. One of you is going to become the bad guy and betray me tonight. There are a lot of people who are waiting to do what they have to do. They cut off Johns head. You can bet your bottom coin on this, they can't do but so much to me. I've taken care of this body. It should serve me well. This is the Feast of the Passover, and I am the Lamb. Everything Moses saw or built was only a model of what's going on in Heaven. So, get on with it.... I want to get this going."
So, that's what goes through my head when I think of the bread and the wine. It's about having Jesus in your heart so you can imagine what He would say or do if He were here now.
The rest is just words..... it's not the Word... IMHO
When I was about 12 my I did the church stuff and I went to the alter.... and the day I was Baptized, my mother was Baptized the same day.
I read the scriptures in the NIV.... IMHO.. When I think about what you call the Eucharist... I can imagine
I see Jesus at the table with those who had been with Him all along. It's the feast of the Passover. It's a strong Jewish holiday. It's been important since the beginning. It's the feast to commemorate the slaying of the first born. Children died. The first born of every family who did not paint their door poste with the blood of the lamb.... from zero to 100 died that night. Even the first born of every animal lay dead the next morning.
Jesus was well acquainted with the holiday. I figure John said He was with His Heavenly Father when the whole thing went down. If John said it... well I believe doctors right now.
We know He could read what people were thinking. The woman at the well proves that. So He knew He was among friends... including Judas. People of His choosing were all around Him and He was the center of attention. He is after all the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and the only begotten Son of God.
I imagine this.....
"OK, so it time for me to say a few words"
The room went silent. Every single person in that room wanted to hear what He was going to say next. He reached out and picked up a piece of the unleavened bread. If He was here now.... He'd probably reach out for a home made flat bread because it's tradition and it's important.... it's the Passover.
"Look, this bread is my fuel. I have enjoyed the taste of this bread since the first bite. I've enjoyed every time we have shared bread. Speaking of which, you remember what happened with the wheat. Here, I'm tearing this up so everyone can have one just like we did on the hillside that day. Do you remember that?"
I imagine He would say it this way now because He was there when the wheat was first formed by His Heavenly Father. Now He had tasted it. Now He knew how the grain strengthened His body after hours and hours of walking and talking.
Then I imagine He would say....
"And the wine.... That was the first act you all thought was some big miracle. Remember the wedding? Some of you were there then. This wine has been running through my body since I could first drink. I have the best recipe for wine hands down. Here, share with Me. Have some wine."
I imagine He would say it this way now because He was there when the water was separated from the land. No doubt His Heavenly Father showed Him how to cup His hands just so. I can just see Them enjoying the first taste of cool clear water. I can just see the smiles. Awesome....
"Whenever you eat bread and drink wine, Remember Me..... It's important. You have to continue as I've shown you. You have to try to do it. Remember, I'll make sure you have the Holy Spirit inside you as your conscience. You'll know when you're wandering off the path better than anyone. You'll be tempted. Respond as you have been taught and you'll be fine. I'll see you soon."
"It's time I go home. Heaven is calling my name. One of you is going to become the bad guy and betray me tonight. There are a lot of people who are waiting to do what they have to do. They cut off Johns head. You can bet your bottom coin on this, they can't do but so much to me. I've taken care of this body. It should serve me well. This is the Feast of the Passover, and I am the Lamb. Everything Moses saw or built was only a model of what's going on in Heaven. So, get on with it.... I want to get this going."
So, that's what goes through my head when I think of the bread and the wine. It's about having Jesus in your heart so you can imagine what He would say or do if He were here now.
The rest is just words..... it's not the Word... IMHO