continued freakout over guns

[Inkd]

Crime is down overall, police killings are the lowest in years, but killings by police are very high.

Do you have a source or is this a PFMA study?

 

[Hank]

I know it is difficult for you to think, but try to keep up

Coming from an adult that can't spell or use proper grammar.....

 

[itsbob]

If it were up to me police would go back to using revolvers.

You have to think twice before dumping 6 bullets into someone with a revolver.

I bet I can make a ten shot revolver (its all ready been done)...and reload just as fast.

 

[GURPS]

Coming from an adult that can't spell or use proper grammar.....

 

[Hijinx]

I bet I can make a ten shot revolver (its all ready been done)...and reload just as fast.

LMAO you could probably make a 30 shot revolver, but it would be hard to fit in a holster.
I doubt it could be reloaded just as fast.

But you miss my point. The weapons the police now have fire so fast and so easy that IMO once they start firing they continue beyond what it takes to stop the offender.
It's the difference between the WW-2 garand that was aimed and fired , and the weapons used in Viet Nam and they sprayed bullets around.
Of course many will not agree, but it's my opinion and I a sticking with it.

 

[Inkd]

LMAO you could probably make a 30 shot revolver, but it would be hard to fit in a holster.
I doubt it could be reloaded just as fast.

But you miss my point. The weapons the police now have fire so fast and so easy that IMO once they start firing they continue beyond what it takes to stop the offender.
It's the difference between the WW-2 garand that was aimed and fired , and the weapons used in Viet Nam and they sprayed bullets around.
Of course many will not agree, but it's my opinion and I a sticking with it.

Man, point me in the direction of one of them thar fast firing guns!!!! All mine shoot pretty slow. Cause that's how I operate them.

In all seriousness, one of the reason so many shots get fired is because of stress shooting. When the adrenalin dumps, the quality of your training, or lack of quality, can be very evident. It's not uncommon in interviews following shootings, officers could not recall how many shots were fired. When I shoot a specific course of fire, I routinely over shoot or under shoot on targets. Since I was gone for three years and didn't shoot hardly at all during that time, my skills are seriously rusty.

Sadly, most law enforcement officers get very basic training in firearms proficiency and little to no follow on training. That is something I think is ridiculous considering the cost of lawsuits. There should be serious, serious training in stress shooting. But, that's expensive and time consuming and most budgets don't allow for it, or have the facilities for it.

 

[glhs837]

Hmm, just like driving training.

 

[Lurk]

In all seriousness, one of the reason so many shots get fired is because of stress shooting. When the adrenalin dumps, the quality of your training, or lack of quality, can be very evident. It's not uncommon in interviews following shootings, officers could not recall how many shots were fired.

I always believed in such situations the individual shooter keeps firing because of very basic reflexes. The sound of partner fire keeps stimulating the reflex to fire one's own firearm.

 

[Larry Gude]

Man, point me in the direction of one of them thar fast firing guns!!!! All mine shoot pretty slow. Cause that's how I operate them.

In all seriousness, one of the reason so many shots get fired is because of stress shooting. When the adrenalin dumps, the quality of your training, or lack of quality, can be very evident. It's not uncommon in interviews following shootings, officers could not recall how many shots were fired. When I shoot a specific course of fire, I routinely over shoot or under shoot on targets. Since I was gone for three years and didn't shoot hardly at all during that time, my skills are seriously rusty.

Sadly, most law enforcement officers get very basic training in firearms proficiency and little to no follow on training. That is something I think is ridiculous considering the cost of lawsuits. There should be serious, serious training in stress shooting. But, that's expensive and time consuming and most budgets don't allow for it, or have the facilities for it.

Good post.

I never know how many total shots I let loose. All I know is every shot was deliberate. Total shots is an irrelevant measurement. That each shot was a deliberate, processed action is what matters, which I think is your point. I think ANY cop is personally responsible for making himself, herself, proficient at stress shooting, OODA, each round, just as a gun owner. That the budget won't allow for it is bad enough but, I don't like the idea of some officer saying 'well, guess I won't practice then'. You don't need to sling lead. Hell, a single round in a decent scenario is good practice if it was the right decision and was let go properly. For that matter, NO shot is GOOD practice as not every stress situation is going to require any shots fired. In fact, it is more important to go train, get geeked up, have friends yelling commands, ####ing with you and NO shot is the right decision. No shot practice is critical in my view, cop or not.

This isn't aimed at you, obviously, and is more general comments.

Good post.

 

[Larry Gude]

I always believed in such situations the individual shooter keeps firing because of very basic reflexes. The sound of partner fire keeps stimulating the reflex to fire one's own firearm.

Poor training. No one who carries a gun, let alone paid to do so, should be doing anything by reflex. That's what training is for; to over come reflexes. Letting loose a bunch of rounds by reflex, as opposed to EACH trigger pull being observed, oriented, decided actions, is what some gang banger would be expected to do or a home owner who never trains. Not someone claiming to be a professional. You absolutely should NOT be letting ANY rounds loose BECAUSE your partner is. That is negligence. That is not proper. You are probably right that that is what happens but, I just wanted to state that it is poor training if that is the case. Ever.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hmm, just like driving training.

That's why we have a great deal of wrecks; people react however they react as opposed to a trained decision in an emergency. As Lord and Master, license renewal would be based on at least annual passing of a training course.

 

[Larry Gude]

How many times does it happen? Really that there is some mongo shootout like the Hollywood one? the simple fact that you need to reach that far back says something. I'm all for officers having the tools and techniques they need. At the same time, we end up, I think, with a sort of "when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail". I dont give a rats ass about pookie, and know that most of these so-called incidents are BS. But, folks engaging in this debate seem to take the position that is you accept pookie getting a wood shampoo to settle his hash when needed, you must also accept a 12 year old kid getting gunned down, or a guy on a cell phone threatening no one getting killed in WalMart. What we are saying is that there needs to be judgement used. We as citizens have a right to expect that. And not. "Screw this, I'm gunning everything down and sorting it out later".

EXCELLENT post.

OUT ####ing standing! That is it, right to the heart; cops are reacting poorly under stress because they either simply can't be trained (not everyone is cop material) or they're not being trained or some combination of both.

 

[glhs837]

That's why we have a great deal of wrecks; people react however they react as opposed to a trained decision in an emergency. As Lord and Master, license renewal would be based on at least annual passing of a training course.

Actually, I was referring to officers in particular. And they do have periodic recerts in a course usually called EVOC, or Emergency Vehicle Operators Course. But I see officers practice crappy techniques all the time. In normal driving, the do stuff I would be annoyed to see civilians do, but trained professionals, it's truly unacceptable.

 

[Larry Gude]

Actually, I was referring to officers in particular. And they do have periodic recerts in a course usually called EVOC, or Emergency Vehicle Operators Course. But I see officers practice crappy techniques all the time.

Poor training is poor training. Sorry to hear that. I did a private class with a guy who is an air marshal. Lets just say I bit my lip a few times.

 

[glhs837]

Poor training is poor training. Sorry to hear that. I did a private class with a guy who is an air marshal. Lets just say I bit my lip a few times.

Thats I always laugh a bit when I hear "Well, officers can operate data terminals and use cell phones because they have special training" bit. Hell, anyone who has done SCCA autocross has better training than the EVOC courses I have seen. Barring some setups like at the FLETC places, most of it is so rinky dink it's laughable. If your course keeps you at 20mph or below, it's not really worth it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Thats I always laugh a bit when I hear "Well, officers can operate data terminals and use cell phones because they have special training" bit. Hell, anyone who has done SCCA autocross has better training than the EVOC courses I have seen. Barring some setups like at the FLETC places, most of it is so rinky dink it's laughable. If your course keeps you at 20mph or below, it's not really worth it.

Not to mention AAPIC training. Advanced Acronym Practical Interpretive Comprehension.

 

[glhs837]

Sorry, Sports Car Club of America and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Update on Wal-Mart shooter.

Police aggressively questioned the tearful girlfriend of a young black man they had just shot dead as he held a BB gun in an Ohio supermarket – accusing her of lying, threatening her with jail, and suggesting that she was high on drugs.

“You lie to me and you might be on your way to jail,” detective Rodney Curd told Thomas, as she wept and repeatedly offered to take a lie-detector test. After more than an hour and a half of questioning and statement-taking, Curd finally told Thomas that Crawford, 22, had died.

“As a result of his actions, he is gone,” said the detective, as she slumped in her chair and cried.

The detective then became increasingly aggressive and banged on the table between them with his hand. “Tell me where he got the gun from,” Curd repeated. Thomas insisted Crawford had been carrying only a white plastic grocery bag when they arrived at Walmart to buy the ingredients to make s’mores at a family cook-out.

Asked one of several times whether Crawford owned a gun, Thomas said: “Not that I know.”

Curd told her: “Don’t tell me ‘not that you know’, because that’s the first thing I realise somebody’s not telling me the truth”.

He later repeated: “You need to tell me the truth” and “You need to be truthful.”

“Did he ever mention ‘I’m going to shoot that bitch’ or something like that?” the detective asked Thomas, who insisted that Crawford had not. Johnson, whom Thomas had never met, was miles away and listened over the phone while Crawford died.

At several points during the interview Thomas swore to God, and on the lives of her three children, the grave of her late brother and “on everything I have” that she was telling the truth, but Curd remained dismissive.

Curd also pushed Thomas on whether she was intoxicated, asking her: “Have you been drinking? Drugs? Your eyes are kind of messed-up looking”. After she told him that Crawford had smelled of marijuana, Curd took down notes. He went on to ask whether Crawford had been suicidal.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/14/john-crawford-girlfriend-questioned-walmart-police-shot-dead

 

[GURPS]

oh that's nice

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Update: DOJ declines to press charges on office that shot Crawford.

“The Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Ohio announced today that they have completed a thorough, independent investigation into the fatal shooting of John Crawford III on August 5, 2014, by Beavercreek Police Officer Sean Williams at the Walmart in Beavercreek, Ohio. This investigation revealed that the evidence is insufficient to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Officer Williams violated federal civil rights laws. Accordingly, the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department and U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Ohio will not pursue federal criminal civil rights charges against Officer Williams.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/crime--law/the-department-justice-releases-full-statement-the-crawford-probe/N8fffAPQIwNcJDmtveKMlM/