EMP threat

[Hessian]

I read a brief piece on the potential damage of an EMP...found this to help explain:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110005479

My thought is...if this gets detonated: why is there no comment on
a) Nuclear power plants (will they be able to shut down their reactors if their circuits are fried?)
b) Airlines: both ground guidence & on board computer get fried: Does that likely doom most planes in the sky?
c) Locks, Canals, & Hydro electric plants....none of this can "switch to manual operation can they?"

So...with the Ruskies and China already warning us they have the capablility...is it possible to get a small scud with an emp missile on one of Bin Laden's fishing scows and launch from 20 miles out in the Atlantic?

How should we respond...or can we?
How can we prevent it...or can we?

 

[Bustem' Down]

Not really worried about it. I'd be more worried of car and suicide bombers running around this country like it's Isreal.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I read a brief piece on the potential damage of an EMP...found this to help explain:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110005479

My thought is...if this gets detonated: why is there no comment on
a) Nuclear power plants (will they be able to shut down their reactors if their circuits are fried?)

If their circuits are fried, probably not. Will their circuits fry; probably not. Since they produce power, they will have power.

b) Airlines: both ground guidence & on board computer get fried: Does that likely doom most plains in the sky?

Depends on the electronics. EMP has been known about in the U.S. for a long time. A lot has been done to harden electronics in certain industrys.

c) Locks, Canals, & Hydro electric plants....none of this can "switch to manual operation can they?"

Some probably can; other not. Locks & canals are probably the most vulnerable. Hydro-electric fall closer to the category of the nuclear power plants, especially the more "modern" ones; their circuits may not fry.

So...with the Ruskies and China already warning us they have the capablility...is it possible to get a small scud with an emp missile on one of Bin Laden's fishing scows and launch from 20 miles out in the Atlantic?

An EMP missile is nothing more than an air burst nuke, so the answer is yes.

How should we respond...or can we?
How can we prevent it...or can we?

Prevent? Can't. Respond? Hey, get out the oil lamps and camp stoves and prepare to walk a lot until the infrastructure is restored; might take a while. Our way of life will definitely change. The good news is a SCUD launched from 20 miles out would only effect an area of the coast and not the entire country, so electricity from other grids could be routed into the effected areas. I'd be more worried about an intercontinental missile like the one North Korea is developing.

 

[itsbob]

Non-Nuclear EMP.. Localized eefec, cheaper, and don't have to worry about geting nuclear material.. BUT hold the phones... I agree with 2A.. EVERYTHING we field now is tested against EMP.. and a lot of commercial applications are EMP proof. Might fry a few transformers on telephone polls.. and your car may not start in the morning.. but fairly simple fixes compared to what COULD have been, and it being limited in area.. resources could be brought to bear and return to nomal would be minimal timewise.

The bomb consists of a metal cylinder (called the armature), which is surrounded by a coil of wire (the stator winding). The armature cylinder is filled with high explosive, and a sturdy jacket surrounds the entire device. The stator winding and the armature cylinder are separated by empty space. The bomb also has a power source, such as a bank of capacitors, which can be connected to the stator.

Here's the sequence of events when the bomb goes off:

* A switch connects the capacitors to the stator, sending an electrical current through the wires. This generates an intense magnetic field.
* A fuze mechanism ignites the explosive material. The explosion travels as a wave through the middle of the armature cylinder.
* As the explosion makes its way through the cylinder, the cylinder comes in contact with the stator winding. This creates a short circuit, cutting the stator off from its power supply.
* The moving short circuit compresses the magnetic field, generating an intense electromagnetic burst.


Most likely, this type of weapon would affect a relatively small area -- nothing on the order of a nuclear EMP attack -- but it could do some serious damage.

 

[Hessian]

Wow...got some serious science lessons this morning!

Now...how about we test a few of these...just to see which works best: Um..lets start with Iran.

 

[Bruzilla]

The primary threat of EMP is to energized circuits as the pulse will overload those circuits resulting in burned circuits and motors. Circuits that aren't energized at the time of the pulse are in less danger. So an airplane that hasn't been hardened for EMP would likely loose control and crash, while one on the ground and powered down would be in less danger.

There's no way that anyone can cap off a ballistic missile with a flight profile for creating an EMP that won't be detected. EMP missiles have to fly a specific profile to work, and our current TBM and ICBM detection systems can plot these out almost immediately after launch, so I would think that if there was a serious EMP threat inbound the power companies would have plenty of time to shut down. Also, if say the Chinese fired an ICBM for this purpose, I think there would be enough time for emergency landings for aircraft.

Lastly, electricity loses power due to spreading, absorbtion, and diffusion as it moves away from its source. If it didn't, we would all be electrocuted by lightning strikes from anywhere in the country. So circuits in the midwest would be damaged far more than those on the coasts if a bomb were detonated over the midwest.

 

[2ndAmendment]

A side note is that old technology, vacuum tube type, is virtually impervious to EMP, local and Nuke. The grid glows white hot as the surge flows, very short duration, and then cools to normal operation in a few seconds.

Our military experts laughed at the mini tube technology they found in the captured MIG-25 until they realized that the MIG's electronics would survive an EMP event and our stuff of the day would not.

 

[Ken King]

Non-Nuclear EMP.. Localized eefec, cheaper, and don't have to worry about geting nuclear material.. BUT hold the phones... I agree with 2A.. EVERYTHING we field now is tested against EMP.. and a lot of commercial applications are EMP proof. Might fry a few transformers on telephone polls.. and your car may not start in the morning.. but fairly simple fixes compared to what COULD have been, and it being limited in area.. resources could be brought to bear and return to nomal would be minimal timewise.

The bomb consists of a metal cylinder (called the armature), which is surrounded by a coil of wire (the stator winding). The armature cylinder is filled with high explosive, and a sturdy jacket surrounds the entire device. The stator winding and the armature cylinder are separated by empty space. The bomb also has a power source, such as a bank of capacitors, which can be connected to the stator.

Here's the sequence of events when the bomb goes off:

* A switch connects the capacitors to the stator, sending an electrical current through the wires. This generates an intense magnetic field.
* A fuze mechanism ignites the explosive material. The explosion travels as a wave through the middle of the armature cylinder.
* As the explosion makes its way through the cylinder, the cylinder comes in contact with the stator winding. This creates a short circuit, cutting the stator off from its power supply.
* The moving short circuit compresses the magnetic field, generating an intense electromagnetic burst.


Most likely, this type of weapon would affect a relatively small area -- nothing on the order of a nuclear EMP attack -- but it could do some serious damage.

Nice description of the explosively pumped flux compression generator (EPFCG) e-bomb that can develop a pulse of millions of amperes and tens of terrawatts of power. Scary part is that they can be built small in physical size (like the backpack/suitcase/car bombs that terrorists like to use) and well planned detonation sites could cause significant disruption to many devices with little to no warning.

 

[BuddyLee]

Scary part is if they hit D.C. with a nuclear weapon Southern Maryland would go with it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Scary part is if they hit D.C. with a nuclear weapon Southern Maryland would go with it.

Not really. A "suitcase" bomb only has a blast radius of about 17 miles.

 

[BuddyLee]

Not really. A "suitcase" bomb only has a blast radius of about 17 miles.

What about the ones that are launched, isn't it 100-150 mile radius?

 

[2ndAmendment]

Nice description of the explosively pumped flux compression generator (EPFCG) e-bomb that can develop a pulse of millions of amperes and tens of terrawatts of power. Scary part is that they can be built small in physical size (like the backpack/suitcase/car bombs that terrorists like to use) and well planned detonation sites could cause significant disruption to many devices with little to no warning.

Yeah. I can think of some targets 100 to 300 miles from here that are probably not hardened that, if hit with EMP, would wreak havoc on the U.S. and world economies.

 

[2ndAmendment]

What about the ones that are launched, isn't it 100-150 mile radius?

No.

 

[2ndAmendment]

[font=HELVETICA, ARIAL][size=+1]1 Megaton Surface Blast: Pressure Damage[/size][/font]

The fission bomb detonated over Hiroshima had an explosive blast equivalent to 12,500 tons of TNT. A 1 megaton hydrogen bomb, hypothetically detonated on the earth's surface, has about 80 times the blast power of that 1945 explosion.

Radius of destructive circle: 1.7 miles
12 pounds per square inch

At the center lies a crater 200 feet deep and 1000 feet in diameter. The rim of this crater is 1,000 feet wide and is composed of highly radioactive soil and debris. Nothing recognizable remains within about 3,200 feet (0.6 miles) from the center, except, perhaps, the remains of some buildings' foundations. At 1.7 miles, only some of the strongest buildings -- those made of reinforced, poured concrete -- are still standing. Ninety-eight percent of the population in this area are dead.

Radius: 2.7 miles
5 psi

Virtually everything is destroyed between the 12 and 5 psi rings. The walls of typical multi-story buildings, including apartment buildings, have been completely blown out. The bare, structural skeletons of more and more buildings rise above the debris as you approach the 5 psi ring. Single-family residences within this this area have been completely blown away -- only their foundations remain. Fifty percent of the population between the 12 and 5 psi rings are dead. Forty percent are injured.

Radius: 4.7 miles
2 psi

Any single-family residences that have not been completely destroyed are heavily damaged. The windows of office buildings have been blown away, as have some of their walls. The contents of these buildings' upper floors, including the people who were working there, are scattered on the street. A substantial amount of debris clutters the entire area. Five percent of the population between the 5 and 2 psi rings are dead. Forty-five percent are injured.

Radius: 7.4 miles
1 psi

Residences are moderately damaged. Commercial buildings have sustained minimal damage. Twenty-five percent of the population between the 2 and 1 psi rings have been injured, mainly by flying glass and debris. Many others have been injured from thermal radiation -- the heat generated by the blast. The remaining seventy-five percent are unhurt.

NOTE: This information has been drawn mainly from "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979). The zones of destruction described on this page are broad generalizations and do not take into account factors such as weather and geography of the target.

See damage from another blast or learn more about fallout and other effects of a nuclear explosion.

 

[2ndAmendment]

[font=HELVETICA, ARIAL][size=+1]25 Megaton Air Blast: Pressure Damage[/size][/font]

Radius of destructive circle: 6.5 miles
12 pounds per square inch

The remains of some buildings' foundations are visible. Some of the strongest buildings -- those made of reinforced, poured concrete -- are still standing. Ninety-eight percent of the population within this area are dead.

Radius: 10.7 miles
5 psi

Virtually everything is destroyed between the 12 and 5 psi rings. The walls of typical multi-story buildings, including apartment buildings, are completely blown out. As you move from the center toward the 5 psi ring there are more structural skeletons of buildings standing. Single-family residences within this this area have been completely blown away -- only their foundations remain. Fifty percent of the population between the 12 and 5 psi rings are dead. Forty percent are injured.

Radius: 20 miles
2 psi

Any single-family residences that are not completely destroyed are heavily damaged. The windows of office buildings have been blown away, as have some of their walls. The contents of these buildings' upper floors, including the people who were working there, are scattered on the street. A substantial amount of debris clutters the entire area. Five percent of the population between the 5 and 2 psi rings are dead. Forty-five percent are injured.

Radius: 30.4 miles
1 psi

Residences are moderately damaged. Commercial buildings have sustained minimal damage. Twenty-five percent of the population between the 2 and 1 psi rings are injured, mainly by flying glass and debris. Many others have been injured from thermal radiation -- the heat generated by the blast. The remaining seventy-five percent are unhurt.

NOTE: This information has been drawn mainly from "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979). The zones of destruction described on this page are broad generalizations and do not take into account factors such as weather and geography of the target.

See damage from another blast or learn more about fallout and other effects of a nuclear explosion.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Probably more than you want to know -> http://www.danshistory.com/nuke.shtml

 

[BuddyLee]

Probably more than you want to know -> http://www.danshistory.com/nuke.shtml

Thanks. Ever see The Day After?

 

[Railroad]

A side note is that old technology, vacuum tube type, is virtually impervious to EMP, local and Nuke. The grid glows white hot as the surge flows, very short duration, and then cools to normal operation in a few seconds.

Our military experts laughed at the mini tube technology they found in the captured MIG-25 until they realized that the MIG's electronics would survive an EMP event and our stuff of the day would not.

Got tube-type HF radio and AM radio (WTOP here I come).

Can build from scratch basic communications

Have wood stove and kerosene heaters and large grill

Not worried.

 

[Hessian]

Let me stretch the thread a bit...

RR's survival list reminded me: How long do you think the people can "Hold it together" after a major emp/wmd event?

I will take the pessimistic view that without electricity...and our protective services being stretched thin- there will be mass migrations, looting, riots.--all in less than two weeks after.

Maybe watching War of the Worlds reminded me. Would I stick it out down here or join the masses in the long march out? Do people stock enough canned food? What happens when the well water pump quits?...All the waste treatment plants go straight to dumping in the rivers...that knocks out fishing/bathing etc.--not a pretty picture.

So Md would be better off than PG & Montgomery Counties...but, we would also face some hostile mobs when the banks & gas stations fail.

 

[Railroad]

RR's survival list reminded me: How long do you think the people can "Hold it together" after a major emp/wmd event?

I will take the pessimistic view that without electricity...and our protective services being stretched thin- there will be mass migrations, looting, riots.--all in less than two weeks after.

Maybe watching War of the Worlds reminded me. Would I stick it out down here or join the masses in the long march out? Do people stock enough canned food? What happens when the well water pump quits?...All the waste treatment plants go straight to dumping in the rivers...that knocks out fishing/bathing etc.--not a pretty picture.

So Md would be better off than PG & Montgomery Counties...but, we would also face some hostile mobs when the banks & gas stations fail.

Except for the water issue, I figure we can hold out for at least a month without having to go get anything. I know the first week or two, we'd be eating a lot of great meals - getting all the frozen stuff before it goes bad.

If we were forced to leave for some reason, we could be on the move in less than an hour, driving the lawn tractor and pulling wife and dog in the trailer. Lawn tractor has old-fashioned magneto system - no chips.