Evil corporations? Or evil shareholders?

[glhs837]

Who is responsible for corporate inhumanity? Maybe evil consumers, who shop only the botttom line?

I know, corporations are not human, and should not be expected to act humanely, profit uber alles. I feel differently. Remove the people, and the corporation is powerless. The people make it go. And someone makes choices on where that is. That someone gets his orders or direction from somewhere.

 

[Mongo53]

Money makes the world go round, but, Integrity holds it together.

And government, they don't have a hand in this. Massive intervention and meddling, no regard for the unintended consequences, moral hazards, etc.

Lobbying, influence peddling, cash for votes, quid pro qou's, etc. Government rewards Greed and short sighted gains, then punishes ethical business and those that plan for the future.

Shouldn't business schools be writing Case Studies on the downfall of some of our biggest financial companies and about the lessons to learn about their irresponsible behavior, greed and focus on short term gains. Purging such behavior by example for a long time to come. Writing Case studies about the smaller companies that focused on long term gains, were ready to absorb the business and assets of the companies that flailed from their own poor decisions and getting in bed with the government trying to slant the playing field in their direction. Reinforcing such behavior by example for a long time to come.

But, NO, that didn't happen did it. Instead, all those companies that deserved to go under by their own weight, got bailed out and rewarded for their bad behavior. All those companies that were ready to step in and fill the void because they ran their business's well, got punished for their good behavior, the government helped the other companies, gave them an advantage which means they now have a disadvantage.

Of course thats NOT the only factors, there are certainly others, just pointing out there is more to consider.

 

[SamSpade]

Corporations, like governments and any other organized group of persons, are neither evil - nor good. They can't be, because they have no "will". They have no conscience. They're no more evil or good than a disease or a hurricane. They may behave in a way that is against what we understand as moral, but they're not anymore alive than a TV character is.

However, it's simpler to regard a regime as evil because we can't hold a whole nation accountable for the actions of its leadership and there's no worldwide law or court under which we all agree to its laws. We can't "sue" China or Russia for a grievance. But we still *say* Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia was evil, even though tens of millions of its citizens were likely no different than you or I, and probably had less say in what was done.

A person can be evil or good, because one will and mind dictates the course of his actions. That person can make the single choice for good or evil, and may be held totally accountable for their actions, alone.

This doesn't mean we can't oppose a corporation or a government the same way we eradicate a disease or fight back the elements of nature.

And this I think is the way it ought to be, and why governments ought not to engage in the same kind of commerce as corporations, because while corporations operate under self-interest, nations operate under the rule of law that every citizen participates in. The role of government in the situation is to provide a balance against the excesses of greed and abuse. It's their job to make sure what they do is legal. As a corporation, it's their job to look out for its investors - as citizens, it's our job to keep them honest.

 

[glhs837]

My point, really was twofold. The people in the company make choices, and those choices decide what actions the company takes, correct? The shareholders also, they choose what actions the company makes by supporting the folks who make those choices. In publicly held ones, anyway.

It seems we excuse bad behavior and choices simply because they happened under the corporate umbrella. Like celebrities and politicians, we get the behavior we expect, allow, and reward, and then seem surprised that that is what we received. Of course he drove drunk, he's a celebrity, or course he took a payoff, or cheated on his taxes, hes a politician. When folks stop accepting such behavior as expected, then it wont be so common, I think.

 

[SamSpade]

I don't condone or excuse it. I just stop at labeling it "evil" or "good". Cancer is not evil, but you might consider it evil if it kept dogging you for years.

You can combat the behavior of a corporation, or a political party, or a growth of tenacious weeds in your garden. If you don't, well, that's your problem. Either way, it is neither evil nor good.

 

[glhs837]

Cancer isn't evil because it has no choice, for it to survive, it must do what it does to us. It has no ethical component.the people that make up a corporation, they have ethics. And I expect them to use them. People in a group can choose how to act. Cancer cells cannot. People in groups make up corporations.

 

[SamSpade]

Cancer isn't evil because it has no choice, for it to survive, it must do what it does to us. It has no ethical component.the people that make up a corporation, they have ethics. And I expect them to use them. People in a group can choose how to act. Cancer cells cannot. People in groups make up corporations.

I guess you've already made up your mind on this one, then. I'm not sure why you'd bother to start a thread on the question if you already know the answer.

Individuals can be ethical. We both agree on that. They can direct the affairs of a group. Individuals are then accountable for their input, but the group is not. A group is an virtual way of looking at how individuals act in concert, and individuals belong to several groups. You cannot assign blame to a group for the actions of individuals, especially if they could not in any way influence the outcome.

This kind of thinking is at the core of racism and prejudice - to assign bad things to a group as a consequence of our private experience with members of that group. People do not wake up being prejudicial, nor are they "taught" to be that way. They choose it as a reaction to their experiences. They can choose rationally, or irrationally.

I belong to Group A. Group A in another town does something terrible. What can I do about it? I can remove myself from that group as a result, but according to your reasoning, I'd still be culpable. (I don't know if you'd reach that conclusion, but it follows your line of thought) because I can't undo something that has already happened. And it's worse for me if I belong to that race, or ethnic group - because I can't undo that. People want to blame all Muslims or Arabs for terrorism, but an individual Arab or Muslim can't change who they are. He can't change his ethnicity.

If individuals in a war commit war crimes against the direction of their superiors, they are accountable for their evil, because they have a conscience. If they were doing as they were told, they are still accountable, because they have a conscience, but those in charge of them are also - individually - accountable.

The group is not, even if every single member were a part of a bad thing. They are individually responsible for their actions in something, which is how we deal with these things legally. We don't punish the group for something its leadership did, but we do punish individuals if they contributed. If we did, we would have treated every single person in Nazi Germany the same as the concentration camp guards and had the nation executed.

If a corporation had no members - could it be evil? What if it only had one? Is the corporation evil, or its one member? If it had ten million, are they all evil, or just the ones that commit evil? What if one person represented the sole member of two corporations - could one be evil, and the other, not? What if ten people formed a gang of thieves and cutthroats - but also privately ran a soup kitchen? Is one group evil, and the other, good? What of the persons, then?

I disagree with your conclusion. People can be evil - things cannot.

 

[glhs837]

My mind isnt completely made up, that's why I wanted to discuss it. I agree with your distinction about calling the group evil, and why that's not right. As for the interaction between the individual and the group, your logic went a bit awry there, I think. If the AARP chapter in Miami decides to fire anyone in their employ under 55, you, as a member here in MD are not responsible for that, nor should you bear a label becuase of it.

But you do have a choice in how you react to what they did. Either remove yourself from the group, or ensure at least you do not support any of the members from Miami responsible for that choice for say regional offices in that group.

Your soldier comparison was better, I think. We hold them individually responsible for acting correctly, even if they were ordered to act badly. But we don't do that for business folks, saying instead that "its not the person, its the company", and I think thats wrong. We wink and nod at things that are legal, but wrong, as if finding a legal loophole that allows wrong is a good thing.

 

[Gilligan]

What constitutes or exemplifies an 'evil corporation'. Who arbitrates the designation? Or are all corporations evil?

Just asking. Read the whole thread before I realized I had no idea what the definition of an evil corporation was.

Signed: Owner of a Corporation

 

[Otter]

What constitutes or exemplifies an 'evil corporation'. Who arbitrates the designation? Or are all corporations evil?

Just asking. Read the whole thread before I realized I had no idea what the definition of an evil corporation was.

Signed: Owner of a Corporation

Three Hour Cruises, Inc is not my idea of a corporation, wouldn't that be a limited partnership?

 

[glhs837]

Does your company take actions that the "reasonable man", might construe as evil? In the case of a Three Hour Cruise type business, making it an unspoken policy that dropped wallets or purses found by employees are to be emptied and tossed over, while the patron is told "Must have fallen overboard". Low grade evil, to be sure, but really, not a lot of room for big evil in the three hour cruise business