Fascinating

[Larry Gude]

See...

Wrong. He was giving Osama bin Laden's "explanation" on why we were attacked.

The TRUE explanation is that the Islamic fundies have hated the US for as long as I can remember, and anything else is just a handy excuse. The fact is that we do not have military bases in any country where we have not been invited. And OBL doesn't have a thing to say about it, until he gets his own country and can refuse to let us set up shop there.

Why didn't he take out the Brits? Why not the Australians? You'd think he'd REALLY hate China. Shoot, the Netherlands is the epitome of debauchery - they make us look like a bunch of Puritans - yet OBL didn't seem inclined to mess with them.

Why not?

...you're seeking someone to say "Oh, that Osama, he is right to do what he does" and that ain't gonna happen. That's not what Paul is saying, that is not what I am saying. Good Lord, I think we should kill the goober. Long, long ago, but, our fearless leader, not me, has decided that we can't upset people by invading Pakistan to go get him because we must win this war, but we can upset people by invading Iraq because we must win this war.

 

[Larry Gude]

Because...

Then why would he even bring it up?

...he is an advocate of non intervention and he might think that 9/11 would not have happened if we never set foot in the Middle East. It would have been great had the Magnificent Rudy asked him that very question instead of having his widdle feelings offended by the word 'reason'.

 

[PsyOps]

...if I say 'red' and someone hears 'green' there isn't a whole lot I can do about that but reiterate that I said 'red'. If you react and start gesticulating up and down questioning whether I said 'green' or not who, exactly, is misrepresenting?

Rudy acted like a cheap, greasy politician in response to Paul stating FACT over a very huge issue and the lemmings, who are all, obviously, scared to death that they don't really understand what we're doing and why latched onto Rudy like the Messiah. They heard Paul say 'reason'. They heard Rudy say 'invited'. They cheered. For what? Hell if they know.

I guess the next topic should be the state of education in this country; the reasons we act like lemmings.

It has nothing to do with misinterpretation of the facts. It has to do with purposeful political propaganda. Folks will misrepresent your point for their own selfish purposes rather than any interest in the truth. You think folks on the left give a @$% about the truth? You say red and they will ALWAYS hear green.

Let me ask you this though, do you think people heard Paul explain why 911 happened or do you think people heard Paul blame America for 911? Regardless of what you believe Paul’s real point was, all that really matters is what the listeners took away from it. Has nothing to do with education; it has everything to do with a person’s ability to properly articulation their point the context of the issue. With such an inflamed issue as this (this war) people are edgy on this and tired of hearing folks (either directly or indirectly) blame America for 911.

In today’s world of political spin, the likes of Rosie, Moveon, etc… will take Paul’s comments and run with “You see, 911 was America’s fault”. Makes no difference if you try to tell the world “red”. If they hear “green” then you can be sure that’s what they are going to print, speak and propagate. You can either demand the entire world to listen more carefully, or you can demand that Paul make his point a little more carefully.

 

[vraiblonde]

he might think that 9/11 would not have happened if we never set foot in the Middle East.

Hello?

 

[Larry Gude]

Who knows?

How about this...do you think OBL would call off his jihad if we pulled all military out of the Middle East? I don't.

It would be much tougher for him to keep his fatwah alive if we did.

What I do believe is when we were hunting his azz in the non Holy Land, Afghanistan, we had most of the worlds support and blessing. When we went into Iraq, we started losing it and made everything Osama told the believers, that the US is coming to invade our lands and kill all Muslims, come true.


People, at base of all of this, the one guy, the bogey man, the one who issued the declaration of war and ordered the attacks, has not been destroyed by us. It's like we went to war against Germany and then let Hitler go and went after Austria because that's where he was born. Non sense.

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh...

Hello?

...I see. Because of what may or may not have actually happened, we now interpret the word 'reason' as 'just' or 'invite'.

Yes, because we can all read Osamas mind, accept Ron Paul of course, and because we KNOW what he would have done had every single detail and fact been different over the last 50 years, we therefore ignore what he says were his motivations and any discussion of them to the contrary is anti US.

 

[vraiblonde]

...I see. Because of what may or may not have actually happened, we now interpret the word 'reason' as 'just' or 'invite'.

Regardless, I do not agree with Ron Paul that that is the "reason" we were attacked on 9-11. I think that they *really* attacked us because they're a bunch of medieval savages who can't accept that not everyone wants to live like some Islamic fundamentalist. So they would like to either force us or kill us.

 

[PsyOps]

...we kill them? Where in the hell did I, of all people, ever leave out that we're at war? I've argued with you, endlessly, that the problem we have is our CIC telling us, over and over, that we are at war and yet he treats it as some sort of police matter and, in the case of bad guy #1, like some forgotten nuisance.

And I have, over and over, endlessly, agreed with you on this. The point behind this was, our politicians go running their mouths, willy-nilly, not giving much though to the consequences of their undisciplined oral cavities. This is equally a war of propaganda as well as bombs and bullets and potential presidential candidates should be cognizant of this when they make haphazard statements they know will probably be purposefully misinterpreted.

 

[Larry Gude]

I heard...

Let me ask you this though, do you think people heard Paul explain why 911 happened or do you think people heard Paul blame America for 911?

...Ron Paul say the word 'reason'. Rudy and you and Vrail and, apparently everyone else but me and a handful of other non English understanding folks heard him say 'invited'.

Now, since Rudy made such a big deal out of a FACT, it is a big deal. It was not an issue when Paul said 'reasons'. It is a BIG DEAL because Rudy says 'reasons' means 'invited'.

So, now, over and over and over, we can all enjoy the spectacle of the GOP fighting over the meaning of words, all while we do agree on one thing, apparently, it doesn't matter at all what the leftists hear; they're not gonna hear anything other than what they want.

So, I and those of my ilk can just accept the new definition of the word 'reason' and shut up about it lest we disturb the populace because we all KNOW what would have happened anyway had we been more non interventionist and we don't want the voters thinking about such big things. It might give them the vapors.

 

[PsyOps]

That is not what he was saying, and Vrai i'm amazed you are falling for it. He (Ron Paul) never stated it was our fault, as much as the Newt and Rudi apologists want to make it that way, what he (Ron Paul) was saying is the REASON THEY (OBL etc.) attacked us.

As Larry stated, OBL cited numerous times, from the mid 90's on, why he was going to war with "Satan" (Us).

This isnt pretzel logic, its explaining our Enemies reasoning, rightly or wrongly. We werent just attacked on 9/11 Al Qeda has used this reasoning from the first World Trade Center bomb up to now. Their (Al Qeda) message hasnt changed.

Newt and Rudi are playing cover for a failed statement. They realize how Paul's comments will be used by the left (AND THE TERRORISTS) as fuel for their "blame America" diatribes.

 

[vraiblonde]

...Ron Paul say the word 'reason'. Rudy and you and Vrail and, apparently everyone else but me and a handful of other non English understanding folks heard him say 'invited'.

He definitely gave the impression that he thought the US brought 9-11 on ourselves because of OBL's various complaints (that he reiterated and appeared to agree with).

You just like the guy and don't want to see his idiocy.

 

[Larry Gude]

*sigh*...

Regardless, I do not agree with Ron Paul that that is the "reason" we were attacked on 9-11. I think that they *really* attacked us because they're a bunch of medieval savages who can't accept that not everyone wants to live like some Islamic fundamentalist. So they would like to either force us or kill us.

...Ron Paul didn't say 'I think this is their reasons...'

Ron Paul said 'they say this is their reasons...'

Ron Paul may well think they are a bunch of medieval savages as well and he might think the same about Iraqi's and he might think that is a great reason to not become entangled with them.

 

[PsyOps]

...Ron Paul say the word 'reason'. Rudy and you and Vrail and, apparently everyone else but me and a handful of other non English understanding folks heard him say 'invited'.

Arrrgggg……. You aren’t paying attention Larry. I’ll go slower.

It doesn't matter what you heard. It matters what will be used for propaganda purposes. I am not worried about what you and I interpret here. We hear REASON. The anti-war, blame-America crowd as well as our enemy, hear “invite”. Paul has inadvertently fed their cause. We can sit in this forum and analyze it, after-the-fact, pretty easily, but the drive-by media and anti-war propagandists wont. That is my worry.

 

[ylexot]

...Ron Paul didn't say 'I think this is their reasons...'

Ron Paul said 'they say this is their reasons...'

What was his purpose for saying that?

 

[Larry Gude]

No, no...

He definitely gave the impression that he thought the US brought 9-11 on ourselves because of OBL's various complaints (that he reiterated and appeared to agree with).

You just like the guy and don't want to see his idiocy.

...you're right; Ron Paul thinks we deserved to be attacked, that we invited it and it was our just deserts and that more than 3,000 people should have died for our stupid foreign policy. In fact, Ron Paul hopes they do get a nuke and millions die so that we'll finally learn our lesson.

I am an idiot for not seeing it right away like you and Rudy, the All knowing.

I'm sorry. If I could only stop being so blind. If I could just stop my idiocy...

Do you know where I can get a tattoo removed? maybe I can change a few letters so it says 'I love Mom' instead of 'Ron'?

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

What was his purpose for saying that?

...I think that Ron Paul's purpose for saying that was to illustrate a negative consequence, the enemies actions and stated reasons, of interventionist foreign policies and to support his position on supporting the founders position on foreign entanglements.

I've been told Paul is an idiot and this can't even be discussed or it means you hate America, so, please, let us never speak of this again.

 

[Larry Gude]

Guffaw!!!!

Arrrgggg……. You aren’t paying attention Larry. I’ll go slower.

It doesn't matter what you heard.

...that is an instant classic! My brother says it doesn't matter how John Kerry voted on the Iraq War; it's what he meant.

Now, what words mean don't matter; it's what someone means they mean!

 

[PsyOps]

So, I and those of my ilk can just accept the new definition of the word 'reason' and shut up about it lest we disturb the populace because we all KNOW what would have happened anyway had we been more non interventionist and we don't want the voters thinking about such big things. It might give them the vapors.

Oh come on Larry, did you pay attention to the last election? Was it based on Americans "thinking about such big things" or was it more based on the left's ability to promote their propaganda (IOW... 91 was America's fault)? Americans don't want to think about big things. They want to be spoon fed. The left knows this and only need to thrust this out there with their spin on it to further their cause.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's actually...

Arrrgggg……. You aren’t paying attention Larry. I’ll go slower.

It doesn't matter what you heard. It matters what will be used for propaganda purposes. I am not worried about what you and I interpret here. We hear REASON. The anti-war, blame-America crowd as well as our enemy, hear “invite”. Paul has inadvertently fed their cause. We can sit in this forum and analyze it, after-the-fact, pretty easily, but the drive-by media and anti-war propagandists wont. That is my worry.

...a verb house into void elephant coffee throwing situation in which outside becomes not pickles as far as smiling at tree under the other conscription.

And, as far as that banana's, it is important not matter pick up truck guitars are really plaster in so far as rejoinder utmost thumps baseball cap.

Agreed not?

 

[2ndAmendment]

The founders also didn't live in a modern world. So unless we all want to live in an 18th century economy, which most of us do not, then we have to accept that things grow, change and move forward.

Think about WWII. Think about Communism. Should we just mind our own business and let the dictators take over? Then what happens when they come after us?

Ron Paul is right. We should keep our noise out of other peoples business. Trade with them on an equal basis, but stay out of their politics.

My ardent desire is, and my aim has been... to comply strictly with all our engagements foreign and domestic; but to keep the U States free from political connections with every other Country. To see that they may be independent of all, and under the influence of none. In a word, I want an American character, that the powers of Europe may be convinced we act for ourselves and not for others; this, in my judgment, is the only way to be respected abroad and happy at home.
George Washington, letter to Patrick Henry, October 9, 1775

Ron Paul is also for returning the power to the proper place, the people and the states. This also reflects the intent of the founders.

"[T]he States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore...never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Judge William Johnson, 12 June 1823) Reference: Original Intent, Barton (261); original Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson