Free Will and Religion

[Starman3000m]

Did both summaries come from the same source? Name the source.

The links below each excerpt cited are individual sources where you can read more info about Calvin and Arminius. Best bet is to do some personal research into as much history about each man from various sources and verifiable accounts. Since both men lived during the time period when documentation of their activities was reported, it should be easy to find out what is truth in regard to the character of each one.

 

[Zguy28]

Did both summaries come from the same source? Name the source.

Of course he didn't. Calvinism is heresy to Starman and he'll do whatever it takes to make sure everybody knows he thinks so. :/

What I don't get is how he can, in one breath, assert semi-Pelagian freewill and in the next breath affirm in Perserverance of the Saints (the "P" in the Calvinist TULIP).

Sure seems irrational to me. If I can choose to follow Him, why can't I choose to for a while and then choose again not to?

Why not, that's what Mennonites and Methodists believe. It's called Conditional Preservation. As long as I have enough faith and continue in said faith, I'll make it. But God help me if I have a crisis of faith and die during it.

Conditional Preservation is a core tenant of Jacob Arminius's theology. But it's ok, because the theology is not on trial here, but rather the personal character of the men the theologies are named after. So, it's all good, since Arminius was such a swell guy and Calvin did some pretty messed up things (Yes, I said it).

 

[Starman3000m]

Of course he didn't. Calvinism is heresy to Starman and he'll do whatever it takes to make sure everybody knows he thinks so. :/

What I don't get is how he can, in one breath, assert semi-Pelagian freewill and in the next breath affirm in Perserverance of the Saints (the "P" in the Calvinist TULIP).

Sure seems irrational to me. If I can choose to follow Him, why can't I choose to for a while and then choose again not to?

Why not, that's what Mennonites and Methodists believe. It's called Conditional Preservation. As long as I have enough faith and continue in said faith, I'll make it. But God help me if I have a crisis of faith and die during it.

Conditional Preservation is a core tenant of Jacob Arminius's theology. But it's ok, because the theology is not on trial here, but rather the personal character of the men the theologies are named after. So, it's all good, since Arminius was such a swell guy and Calvin did some pretty messed up things (Yes, I said it).

C'mon Zguy - let's give credit where credit is due. "Perseverance of the Saints" is what the Holy Spirit of God gives to strengthen believers throughout life. It is a Biblical principle that should not be credited to Calvin.

In regard to having a "crisis of faith", please explain what you mean. Do you mean that when a believer has a crisis of faith he/she rejects that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of mankind and perhaps God does not exist?

What, in your opinion, constitutes having a "crisis of faith" ?

 

[ItalianScallion]

What I don't get is how he can, in one breath, assert semi-Pelagian freewill and in the next breath affirm in Perserverance of the Saints (the "P" in the Calvinist TULIP). Sure seems irrational to me. If I can choose to follow Him, why can't I choose to for a while and then choose again not to?

Yes, the problem is that YOU can't see it. You should work on that. Stop denying God's omniscience. If you choose to follow Him for a while and then not to, don't you really think God would know that too?

The "P" in calvinism is simply the once saved always saved doctrine. Listen to what you're saying bro...

 

[Zguy28]

Yes, the problem is that YOU can't see it. You should work on that. Stop denying God's omniscience. If you choose to follow Him for a while and then not to, don't you really think God would know that too?

I'd hate to see you think rationally. Instead you throw a smoke bomb about me denying God's omniscience, which I have never done.



Let's look again at Election shall we?

Does the bible call people to repent and believe the Gospel? Absolutely.

Are people held responsible for not believing the Gospel? Absolutely.

I think we all agree on those. I know I do.

However, we have a difference when it comes to what God's role is and what kind of sovereign action He takes in our salvation.

The Arminian (you and Starman), believe that our "predestination" or "election" is totally based on God "foreknowing" who would believe and then making that come to pass as He saw it. You hang your entire belief on this on Romans 8:29.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

You make the assumption that "foreknew" entails God knowing who would choose Him or a fact about the person. Quite a leap from one word in the text.

Explain to me why it DOESN'T mean "God knew from eternity who He has chosen".

Maybe respected theologian Wayne Grudem (yes, he's a Calvinist too) can explain it better than me?

But this verse can hardly be used to demonstrate that God based his predestination on foreknowledge of the fact that a person would believe. The passage speaks rather of the fact that God knew persons ("those whom he foreknew"), not that he knew some fact about them, such as the fact that they would believe. It is a personal, relational knowledge that is spoken of here: God, looking into the future, thought of certain people in saving relationship to him, and in that sense he "knew them" long ago. This is the sense in which Paul can talk about God's "knowing" someone, for example, in 1 Corinthians 8:3: "But if one loves God, one is known by him." Similarly, he says, "but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God ..." (Gal. 4:9). When people know God in Scripture, or when God knows them, it is personal knowledge that involves a saving relationship. therefore in Romans 8:29, "those whom he foreknew" is best understood to mean, "those whom he long ago thought of in a saving relationship to himself." The text actually says nothing about God foreknowing or foreseeing that certain people would believe, nor is that idea mentioned in any other text of Scripture.

I urge you to read the entire article with a heart and mind open to what the Scripture says, without presupposition. It's not long, and Grudem is no stranger to the Scripture, he was one of the lead editors on the ESV translation of the bible. I have found him honest in his interpretations, even before I came to share similar beliefs (yes, I use to be Arminian and a Left Behind rapture believer).

Misunderstandings of the Doctrine of Election by Wayne Grudem

The "P" in calvinism is simply the once saved always saved doctrine. Listen to what you're saying bro...

I know what I am saying, what are you saying?

You say people "choose" to go to Jesus, but it is impossible for them to then "choose" to leave Jesus.

Is this free-will? NO. Otherwise we could leave Him and choose to lose our salvation.

You say that God conditionally chooses people to go to Jesus based on the fact that they would choose Him, but that He unconditionally prevents them from leaving based on His sovereignty.

Is this free-will? NO. Otherwise we could leave Him and the "P" is now conditional and you can lose salvation.

Not only is it NOT free-will, it's illogical as well and not a valid critical argument because the conclusion is not supported by the premises.

Basing salvation/election on foreknowledge makes us coming to Christ a concrete fact. It can't be changed. It MUST happen. We must choose Christ. Otherwise God would know that too.

How is that free-will again if it is, in reality, impossible for me to choose contrary to God's predestinating foreknowledge?

 

[Zguy28]

C'mon Zguy - let's give credit where credit is due. "Perseverance of the Saints" is what the Holy Spirit of God gives to strengthen believers throughout life. It is a Biblical principle that should not be credited to Calvin.

Perseverance of the Saints means that all believers will finish the race "in Christ."

I'm not crediting Calvin with inventing it. He merely pulled it from the Scriptures accurately.

In regard to having a "crisis of faith", please explain what you mean. Do you mean that when a believer has a crisis of faith he/she rejects that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of mankind and perhaps God does not exist?

What, in your opinion, constitutes having a "crisis of faith" ?

I mean somebody who goes through the "dark nights of the soul" or something similar where they may doubt God's existence or power or that He cares.

The apostle Peter is a good example. He confessed Jesus as the Son of God in Matt 16, Mark 8, and Luke 9. Yet he later denied Him.

What if he died on the same night Jesus was arrested?

 

[PsyOps]

Are people held responsible for not believing the Gospel? Absolutely.

But this defeats any possibility of predetermination. How can one be held accountable for something they didn’t decide to do?

 

[Zguy28]

But this defeats any possibility of predetermination. How can one be held accountable for something they didn’t decide to do?

Here is the apostle Paul's answer to this question. Accept it if you can my friend.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

It's not hard to imagine when you realize that we are unable to choose Christ without God's enabling and unconditional grace and mercy. Somewhere along the line (probably a result of the Fall of man) we humans came to believe that if God shows mercy and grace to one person, we are all entitled to it. Quite the opposite, none are entitled to grace. It is totally God's to dispense as He sees fit. Nothing unfair about how He chooses to do it. He is God afterall.

 

[Starman3000m]

...It's not hard to imagine when you realize that we are unable to choose Christ without God's enabling and unconditional grace and mercy. Somewhere along the line (probably a result of the Fall of man) we humans came to believe that if God shows mercy and grace to one person, we are all entitled to it. Quite the opposite, none are entitled to grace. It is totally God's to dispense as He sees fit. Nothing unfair about how He chooses to do it. He is God afterall.

So what is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation Chapters 20 & 21?

 

[Zguy28]

So what is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation Chapters 20 & 21?

Seems pretty straight forward to me. God is just in His comdemnation of sinful humans. So He gives them a trial. This is part of the root of Paul's view of Justification as a legal reckoning.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Starman3000m]

Perseverance of the Saints means that all believers will finish the race "in Christ." I'm not crediting Calvin with inventing it. He merely pulled it from the Scriptures accurately.

Any theologian can "pull from the Scriptures" and be accurate as long as it is in the context of the subject. It is the out of context situations that cause the problems. It is the exemplary method in which Calvin failed miserably when he began persecuting and torturing those who did not agree with "his" concept of predestination.

Calvin became the exact opposite of the Apostle Paul in that Paul persecuted Christians before he became one and Calvin persecuted Christians after he claims to have become one.

Calvin would have made a good Muslim,

I mean somebody who goes through the "dark nights of the soul" or something similar where they may doubt God's existence or power or that He cares.

The apostle Peter is a good example. He confessed Jesus as the Son of God in Matt 16, Mark 8, and Luke 9. Yet he later denied Him.

What if he died on the same night Jesus was arrested?

"Dark nights" or any crisis in the life of a truly born-again believer would normally cause that individual to draw closer to God for help through the situation - not turn away, get mad at or doubt God's existence. Therein is the test of one's commitment of faith and the reason why it is the Holy Spirit that God/Jesus has sent to indwell the life of a believer in Christ - to turn to Him in times of trouble.

As for Peter's denial of Christ, indeed, Peter denied Jesus to save his own skin but Jesus already knew that was going to happen and told him so. As for what would have happened to Peter if he had died on that night of denying Jesus, well, here is what the Bible states would be Jesus' answer:

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 10:32-33)

 

[Zguy28]

Any theologian can "pull from the Scriptures" and be accurate as long as it is in the context of the subject. It is the out of context situations that cause the problems. It is the exemplary method in which Calvin failed miserably when he began persecuting and torturing those who did not agree with "his" concept of predestination.

Calvin became the exact opposite of the Apostle Paul in that Paul persecuted Christians before he became one and Calvin persecuted Christians after he claims to have become one.

Calvin would have made a good Muslim,

Just like most fundies, you are like the pot calling the kettle black.

You mistake my labeling myself as "Calvinist" as some sort of personal devotion to John Calvin. Are you that myopic and petty? You sound alot like a Muslim apologist.

"Dark nights" or any crisis in the life of a truly born-again believer would normally cause that individual to draw closer to God for help through the situation - not turn away, get mad at or doubt God's existence. Therein is the test of one's commitment of faith and the reason why it is the Holy Spirit that God/Jesus has sent to indwell the life of a believer in Christ - to turn to Him in times of trouble.

Keep telling yourself that. I guess not everybody is as holy and pious as you are.

As for Peter's denial of Christ, indeed, Peter denied Jesus to save his own skin but Jesus already knew that was going to happen and told him so. As for what would have happened to Peter if he had died on that night of denying Jesus, well, here is what the Bible states would be Jesus' answer:

So you think Peter would have been lost? Doomed to Hell?

 

[Starman3000m]

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

out of context response by you Zguy!


So what you believe then is that God judges the non-believer for being a non-believer because He made them a non-believer and casts that person into Hell for being a non-believer?

You do realize that what you are saying is that other posters here on somd who are admitted Atheists were created by God to be non-believers and they have no chance at Salvation right?

Sorry, but the Jesus of The New Testament that I believe in shed His Blood on the cross as an Atonement for the sins of all who accept Him by faith and trust Him as Lord and Saviour of their life. I believe in the Biblical teaching that God does not want anyone to perish and offers them the opportunity to repent of unbelief and trust in the Forgiveness and Mercy that He bestows upon anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus.

 

[Starman3000m]

...So you think Peter would have been lost? Doomed to Hell?

Peter would have been another "Judas" in that case. However, had it not been for Jesus' foreknowledge and understanding and forgiveness of the situation, yes. The Scripture cited is quite plain about the fate of those who deny Christ. Also, recall that Jesus had previously rebuked one of Peter's response and referred to him as "Satan" in the accounts of Matthew 16:23; Mark 8:33; Luke 4:8.

 

[Zguy28]

out of context response by you Zguy!

You asked. I supplied the Word of God and you cry "out of context". I think your concept of context is out of context. :

So what you believe then is that God judges the non-believer for being a non-believer

John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

because He made them a non-believer

Romans 9:21-24
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

and casts that person into Hell for being a non-believer?

Revelation 20:15
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You do realize that what you are saying is that other posters here on somd who are admitted Atheists were created by God to be non-believers and they have no chance at Salvation right?

Could be. Then again, maybe some of them are predestined to Election and haven't been brought to faith yet.

Sorry, but the Jesus of The New Testament that I believe in shed His Blood on the cross as an Atonement for the sins of all who accept Him by faith and trust Him as Lord and Saviour of their life.

Don't be sorry. Be glad. I believe this also. Those who believe are the elect and vessels chosen to bring God glory! Rejoice in that fact.

Are you proud that you have enough faith from within your own person to believe and be saved?

I believe in the Biblical teaching that God does now want anyone to perish

If you truly cared about context and were willing to see past your pride and pig-headedness and consider just for a second that your biblical interpretation may not be 100% accurate, you might just notice that the verse you cherry pick from 2 Peter 3 is written by Peter in reference to the Elect only.

Don't get me wrong, I think for the most part you are sound, and I have no doubt you are a Christian. I just think you have a wrong view of God's sovereignty.

and offers them the opportunity to repent of unbelief and trust in the Forgiveness and Mercy that He bestows upon anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus.

The "anyone who calls upon" is the Elect. But only God knows them, since He is the Shepherd of the sheep. It's why we do evangelism and why the call to go to all.

"Salvation is of the Lord."

 

[Zguy28]

When you are ushered before the presence of God on the Day of Judgment are you willing to declare, 'I'm here because of something "I" did', or even partly did in cooperation with Christ? Or will you give ALL GLORY to God, even for your new eyes, ears and heart to believe?

I didn't write that, but it is fitting. Credit goes here.

 

[Starman3000m]

Fixed

John 3:18 + Calvin
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (BECAUSE God predestined him to not believe in the name of the only Son of God)

Do you agree with that Zguy?

 

[Zguy28]

Fixed



Do you agree with that Zguy?

Adding to the Scripture again are you? So predictable.

What does the bible actually say Starman? Not your translation of it, but what it actually says. Don't avoid the parts that conflict with your personal interpretations.

 

[Starman3000m]

Adding to the Scripture again are you? So predictable.

What does the bible actually say Starman? Not your translation of it, but what it actually says. Don't avoid the parts that conflict with your personal interpretations.

C'mon Zguy. Predestination, according to Calvin, means that those who are condemned had already been created by God to be condemned and those who are saved had already been created to be saved. Right?

 

[Zguy28]

C'mon Zguy. Predestination, according to Calvin, means that those who are condemned had already been created by God to be condemned and those who are saved had already been created to be saved. Right?

Friend, what does the Word say?

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?