see how handy it is to wait until someone can actually answer the question before you use that word...
Free Will and Religion
- Thread starter UNA
- Start date
So many just can't do that, RR. You know, the old pride thing, the thing that got Lucifer and his kicked out heaven.
So many men/women just to try and figure God out (impossible, despite overwhelming evidence against there not being a Creator), rather than just look at the universe, nature, our hands, our eyes, and just figure God in.
All will believe in time. Unfortunately for billions, that will only be when they are judged and sent into a lost eternity.
So sad for those that simply reject the Good News.
UNA
New Member
What would be the correct word then? "Predestination" is the word used in the Bible, so did the Bible use the wrong word?
God trying to get us to follow him is not what is being discussed here. You said the correct interpretation of Romans 9:16 was that Paul was implying that God never chose a person against there will (and so it would follow that God would also not not choose us against our will). What is your context for this interpretation over mine?ItalianScallion said:
IDK, seems pretty dumb to believe in God but then refuse to follow him especially if you also believe eternal salvation is on the line. Not saying you're dumb, just trying to understand where you're coming from.ItalianScallion said:
But they were the loveliest of them all!!ItalianScallion said:Not me! I like some green alligators and long necked geese, some humpty backed camels and some chimpanzees, some cats & rats & elephants but sure as you're born, NOAH FORGOT THE UNICORNS!!!
Do you see what I was saying though?
Again, you seem to be assuming that atheists/agnostics would not rather things work like you believe. I'd much rather my consciousness go on but there is no evidence that it does.ItalianScallion said:
ItalianScallion said:Our faith is in the evidence that points to God. I can't take you to a place and say: Here's God. If that was how it could be done, He would have to appear to everyone throughout history. He did it once and won't do it again until the end.
I don't know where you live but did you see the devastation that the hurricane of 2002 caused in LaPlata? I saw it 20 minutes after the funnel crossed 301. There was no wondering about what caused that kind of destruction. Everyone knew! It's the same with God. Our faith comes from believing in what we cannot see because of the evidence in the things we can see. See?
So a tornado is proof of God? But we can explain it (pretty well) empirically, there is no need for God here...
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UNA
New Member
The word of men that lived thousands of years ago just isn't enough to convince me, especially since no one bothered to write it down at the time.
Hi UNA,
Jesus left a lot of evidence in His teachings that have been recorded in the Holy Bible. His disciples were there with Him and documented first-hand experiences that point to Jesus being the Messiah and Saviour of mankind as He proclaimed.
This is where faith and trust becomes the essence of coming to the spiritual understanding about God and about His Plan of Salvation that is offered through Jesus for eternal life in Heaven. He freely offers it to you, your friends, your family - the whole world! As ItalianScallion said, it's up to you whether you want to believe Him or not. If you invite Jesus to be your Saviour, He will not turn you away.
UNA
New Member
It is this type of conundrum that leads many away from the Bible and to reason. This is a Biblical contradiction, the Bible says what it says and no interpretation of it can be sound because we just don't know. The Bible...#1 deconverter of Christians.
Why should we accept that?!PsyOps said:
Wait a second...if God can do whatever He want with/to us whenever He wants for whatever reason...then how can you count of free will? The mere ability to take it away negates the concept. Assuming He wont is NOT a safe not a valid assumption.
OK, so He predestined them which means He can do it to anyone. By definition, this effects free will.PsyOps said:
This is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. My life (all out lives) doesn't have purpose because an imaginary creature gave it one rather my life has purpose because I have hopes, dreams, goals, happiness, sadness and a will to leave the world a better place.PsyOps said:
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
You didn't believe me the last time I gave you proof or evidence (The Creation, historical documents, archaeology, etc) so...
Predestines is a good enough word for what happens. God knows what will happen to each of us, all the time. He doesn't have to change everything that happens unless He feels that it might cause us mortal harm. He let's a lot of things happen just as they would during the normal course of our lives. He sometimes intervenes, just like our parents would do, to protect us.
Not really. It's the difference between knowing about someone vs becoming close with them. I thought I was "cool with God" but I really wasn't until I really got to know Him.UNA said:
Yes.UNA said:But they were the loveliest of them all!!
Jesus said there is...UNA said:
No, it was just an analogy.UNA said:
So a tornado is proof of God? But we can explain it (pretty well) empirically, there is no need for God here...
No, I provided this proof:
If: Creation = Creator
Then: No creator = No Creation
Therefore: God has no creator = God doesn't exist
Starman3000m
New Member
But they did UNA! The Old Testament writings of Judaism (Tanakh) were at first passed along through oral teaching but then they were written down by the scribes. Jewish High Priests unrolled the scrolls and taught from them - the teachings of Moses and the Prophets whose words were documented and told the accounts about God's guidance, God's Laws and the coming day of a Messiah who would bring True Peace on earth. Jesus even read from them as noted in Luke 4:17-19:
The Disciples of Jesus wrote letters to one another on parchment and their writings were passed along in the preaching ministry of the early 1st-century church. Those are the eye-witness accounts that are reliable and tell about the events happening during the time of Jesus. The writings comprise The New Testament teachings in the Holy Bible.
So, yes, men did "bother to write it down at the time."
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ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
That is completely wrong because God doesn't always follow logical paths. You're trying to put limits on that which is limitless. IOW: You're trying to understand an infinite being with your finite mind.
You put science ahead of God when it should be the other way around. God made all the laws of science & nature and He didn't make them so that people would use them to disprove His existence.
Until you're willing to accept spiritual things by faith (and they're not imaginary) their understanding will always elude you.
And we are done as the circle talk begins.
Final thoughts, the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, since nothing moves faster than the speed of light the universe is infinite. Yet my finite mind does a pretty good job at understanding that (that's not to say I or anyone knows everything about the universe yet). The number line is infinite and I understand math. I can grasp 4 spacial dimensions even though I only experience 3.
The fundamental problem I have with religion is that it assumes it knows everything (the answer being god) while science looks at how much we have left to discover. You don't have faith, you've just given up on looking for the answers. Thankfully we live in a world where you are the minority. We live in a world where most people won't say "we just aren't able to figure that out". 100 years ago lighting was the wrath of god and we would never understand it, lucky for us some people studied it and figured out electricity by abandoning the notion that "god just did it and we can't understand god" and made this conversation possible. Go ahead, keep following your god that exists in the gaps of science and watch him shrink away as those gaps are filled by those willing to keep looking for answers.
PsyOps
Pixelated
1) So what. This still does not prove any math we used here, based on the confines of where have travelled thus far, in any ways applies to objects in objects of places we have never been.
2) Oh, so the GOAL OF SCIENCE makes it true. Well, the goal of Christianity is to use God’s words to help bring people to God. LOOK IT’S WORKED!
Billions over the millennia have become Christians. Because you can predict something is going to be in a certain place because of certain scientific laws doesn’t prove that object out there is a black hole. You’ve never been to one, you’ve never touched one, you’ve certainly never SEEN one (since they are conveniently invisible). The same evidence you are demanding to prove God is the same evidence that is lacking in proving certain scientific conclusions. The bottom line is, YOU BELIEVE THESE THINGS ARE TRUE because you believe the math. What if the math is wrong? And you believe science has been correct 100% of time in predicting where objects are going to be, what does that have to do with claiming that object out there is a black hole?Let me make myself clear here, as I have tried to do on multiple occasions with you… I’m not trying to prove you wrong. I’m using your demands to prove the existence of God against you to prove the existence of certain things you’re convinced exist; but can’t prove it except through math and distance observations. The central core of what defines your trust in science is not all that different in what defines a Christian’s trust in the information that leads them to believe in God. FAITH. BELIEF.
Science may prove a lot of things, but it has yet to prove that God DOESN’T exist. In the end it boils down to what you chose to believe.
PsyOps
Pixelated
I asked you to prove black holes exist and you threw and bunch of rhetorical argument and Newton's Law, none of which proves black holes exist. That is a FAIL. :shrug:
PsyOps
Pixelated
Perhaps you need to look at demographics to see where peoples’ beliefs lie. I suspect if I throw these stats in front of you, you will reject them. But the fact is people of faith (any faith) make up the vast majority of the world’s population. Of those Christians are the largest population. This doesn’t even account for the billions (or maybe eve trillions) over the millennia that have believed. Now, for people that like to use numbers to prove things, you can’t reject these facts. Claiming all these people are unreasonable while you – in the VAST MINORITY – claim you own reason is nothing more than arrogance in the face of overwhelming numbers.
You obviously don’t have to. Guess what? YOU JUST EXERCISED FREE WILL!
But you’re purposely glazing over my point… God is doing what He wants, exercising His will over us, by giving us free will. Your assertion is false. If you have a child and give him an Xbox, you allow him to play with it any time he wants. However, you CAN take it away any time you want. But you don’t. Because you have the power to do something, yet don’t use it, doesn’t mean it negates the premise of ‘the gift’.
Ok. :shrug: I didn’t say it didn’t. He is God and CAN do with His creation as He sees fit. Just as the universe turns and moves in its own way. We can't change it and we can't manipulate it to what we want it to be. I am saying that God is not pulling every single human’s strings at His own will. He is not picking and choosing every single person for their salvation. He has, however, used certain people to carry out His purpose. I understand this about as much you understand what REALLY causes mass to attract in space.
Hopes and dreams for what? Leave the world a better place for what? Why? If we’re just here and *poof* we’re gone. What grand purpose did you really serve other than just exist at this particular point in time? The difference is your hopes and dreams are over when you die. There is no hope beyond that. My hopes and dreams are promised forever.
PsyOps
Pixelated
This cyclical thinking can be applied to your world of thinking.
How did all this stuff get here?
Apparently you don't know how observation works. If you apply the same logic I used to Christianity then I (and many others) was raised in a Christian home, with Christian teachings and provided the same access to Christian information as you and yet I am not a Christian. Using the scientific method since there is no way to predict the outcome based upon the same circumstances therefore, your hypothesis is incorrect. If you try to apply the scientific method to this one, and truly understand how it works you will lose.1) So what. This still does not prove any math we used here, based on the confines of where have travelled thus far, in any ways applies to objects in objects of places we have never been.
2) Oh, so the GOAL OF SCIENCE makes it true. Well, the goal of Christianity is to use God’s words to help bring people to God. LOOK IT’S WORKED!
Let me make myself clear here, as I have tried to do on multiple occasions with you… I’m not trying to prove you wrong. I’m using your demands to prove the existence of God against you to prove the existence of certain things you’re convinced exist; but can’t prove it except through math and distance observations. The central core of what defines your trust in science is not all that different in what defines a Christian’s trust in the information that leads them to believe in God. FAITH. BELIEF.
And no, you are not putting the same demands on me because you are changing the definition of science. You said "prove black holes exist", I did based on observation. You said "prove it's a black hole" I did based on another observation. You said "prove the laws of physics work everywhere", I did based on still more observations. After all that you just reject observation with no evidence to refute them. I'm not asking you to provide evidence then nonsensically rejecting it based on literally nothing.
Good, because you haven't.
Science doesn't have to prove God doesn't exist any more than it has to prove that big foot doesn't exist. Are you accepting that unicorns, the tooth fairy and Santa Clause exist because science hasn't dis-proven them? By your logic I can list and unending list of things that you and everyone else would have to accept as existing based only on the grounds that science hasn't dis-proven them. To put it simply, that's just not how science, logic or any semblance of a working society work.
This is long, but could be helpful, I suggest watching:
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Because you're not a scientist, and have no desire to understand how science actually works. I didn't use a "rhetorical argument" I used actual observations taken in multiple places, at multiple times, by multiple people. That is the trifecta of provable evidence.
You, on the other hand used a subjective observation (people are Christians without defining the criteria of what makes a Christian) with no consideration of the method of one becoming a Christian.
Since you seem to want to apply scientific method to your hypothesis (which seems to be the ridiculous claim that because people believe in god there must be one) here goes. My sister and I are a mere 13 months apart in age. We were raised in the same home, with the same parents at the same time. We both received the same exposure to religion. My sister is a faithful follower, I am an Atheist. According to the scientific method, when 2 experiments (my sister and I) are conducted in the same manner (we were raised at the same time in the same conditions) and yield different results the hypothesis must be adjusted or rejected. There for, since you want to use science, I did, and have dis-proven your hypothesis based upon observable phenomena.
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How did the world, the universe get here? If that's what you're asking then the answer is simple. We're looking, there are currently some great experiments going on but currently we aren't sure. Unlike religion, science is still looking.
PsyOps
Pixelated
In other words; when you can’t convince me (FAIL), you throw the ‘FAIL’ card, but word it differently.
There is no win or lose here. These things boil down to what you believe. Period! Look, I’ve told you this before, I mostly agree with what our science have revealed. I have told you before that science has convinced me there are black holes. I am using a rhetorical argument to show that you can’t prove – beyond doubt – that anything you believe is true anymore than I can prove my God exists. There is enough evidence for me to BELIEVE black holes exist. There is also enough evidence for me to BELIEVE the God I believe in exists. I was raised in a home where my dad was an atheist and science was the evidence for all things that exist. My neighbor was John Mather (look him up). He frequently came to our house for these discussions. Devoid of any Christian influence in my house, I still became a Christian. So did my brother. :shrug:
The one compelling thing, if nothing else, that has convinced me about God is all these billions of people, passed on from one generation to the next are wrong? I think not. And this doesn’t even consider documented evidence of God as well as archeological evidence. All of which you reject. You refuse to accept that not everything has to have some equation to substantiate. You refuse to accept that perhaps math can’t explain everything; and it doesn’t need to.
(Not sure why this is showing up in your post)
How can you claim something exists based on observation yet deny a Christian’s contention that God exists based on the same factors (observation)? You didn’t prove anything except post a video that shows me nothing. I am demanding that you actually SHOW me a black hole. Don’t give me math or ‘observations’; physically show me. Until you can do this, I can place doubt on it.
But you use science as a means to be convinced that God doesn’t exist. By proxy, it is the same thing. Because it can’t prove God exists, therefore God must not exist. But since you inserted logic into this… What sort of logic goes into suggesting that the vast majority of humans on this earth, over several millenia, are wrong? That somehow, you atheists, because you have math and science, you’ve got it right? I live in a place where both worlds can be right. One does not disprove the other in any way.
I can’t watch your video right now.
PsyOps
Pixelated
I like your reasoning, I really do; but you really don’t pay good attention.
Since we’ve been down this road a few times, I assumed you knew my arguments are rhetorical. Please stop assuming I don’t have a desire to understand, or even understand science. You really know nothing about me. Attacking my knowledge level does not make your argument stronger.
I gave you my example of my parents (atheists) and my brother and me; same scenario on the opposite end of your spectrum. So what? Try to apply your scientific method here. :shrug:
PsyOps
Pixelated
No... not "How did the universe get here". How did all the stuff (matter) get here. Where did it come from? With every answer (theory) you try to come up with the question "why" can always be asked.
For instance... why does mass have gravity in space? Throw me all of your calcutions and theories and I can still ask "Okay, but why does it happen that way?" There is no real definitive way of explaining WHY these things happen.