Genesis 22 With the knife in his hand

[seekeroftruth]

Genesis 22:8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.​

Those angels sure know just when to show up!

This is the commentary from blueletterbible.org.

At this time, Abraham was more than 100 years old, and Isaac would have been able to get away had he chosen to. Yet he submits to his father perfectly. In remembering Abraham's faith, we should never forget Isaac's faith.

Jewish commentators think Isaac was in his thirties at the time of this event.

As an obedient son, Isaac laid down on the wood, ready to be sacrificed.​

This is from the easy English commentary.

Isaac was willing to obey Abraham. Isaac could have refused to obey

I was thinking.... the whole book would have had to be changed if Isaac hadn't agreed.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

This lovely story showcases the moral depravity of the biblical god in an obvious manner to a rational person. A loving 'god' would not ask a parent to sacrifice their child to him to prove their obedience.

This is the test of a violent, controlling, psychopath of a god, not a moral one. That apologetic after apologetic must be employed to spin this into an 'inspiring' story of Abraham's faith is loathsome.

 

[littlelady]

This lovely story showcases the moral depravity of the biblical god in an obvious manner to a rational person. A loving 'god' would not ask a parent to sacrifice their child to him to prove their obedience.

This is the test of a violent, controlling, psychopath of a god, not a moral one. That apologetic after apologetic must be employed to spin this into an 'inspiring' story of Abraham's faith is loathsome.

You can't change the Bible, so stop trying. If you don't believe in it, that is fine. You waste your time here. Start your own Forum and refute the Bible all you want. Oh, and yeah, Americans have a government that have asked for the sacrifice of children to fight in the name of freedom for their purpose. Same thing.

Maybe, you should start posting in the Politics Forum. It seems a better fit for you.

One more thing: I have never seen a member so dedicated as seeker in her postings. She is the winner in all this. You really need to get a life, so to speak.

 

[seekeroftruth]

This lovely story showcases the moral depravity of the biblical god in an obvious manner to a rational person. A loving 'god' would not ask a parent to sacrifice their child to him to prove their obedience.

This is the test of a violent, controlling, psychopath of a god, not a moral one. That apologetic after apologetic must be employed to spin this into an 'inspiring' story of Abraham's faith is loathsome.

Haven't you been following the whole story? Abraham was promised a family with Sarah. Years and years and years and years and years went by with no child. It took so long for Sarah to get pregnant that they doubted... [Ishmael and Hagar]. Finally, the lovely Sarah, did conceive. Isaac was born. Abraham and Sarah knew he was the miracle that God had promised. A healthy baby, fine in every way, conceived by Sarah and Abraham at their very old age.... way past the age of childbirth to a previously baron woman.

There is no way that Isaac was ever in any danger. Abraham and Isaac knew that. That's the story.... It's not a story of depravity.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

There is no way that Isaac was ever in any danger. Abraham and Isaac knew that. That's the story.... It's not a story of depravity.

Seeker, your assertion is not scripturally supported. It's impossible to say that "Abraham and Isaac knew" by reaching this conclusion from scripture only. The apologetics you're drawing on are essentially made-up to 'apologize' for an immoral act. You can find a wide variety of apologetics related to this story.

The story is about a test of absolute obedience, even if it means murdering your own child to prove it. Granted, it's all fiction. A sick, twisted, fiction that makes sense to primitive bronze age sheepherders, the ancient Hebrews, whose culture included child sacrifice.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Seeker, your assertion is not scripturally supported. It's impossible to say that "Abraham and Isaac knew" by reaching this conclusion from scripture only. The apologetics you're drawing on are essentially made-up to 'apologize' for an immoral act. You can find a wide variety of apologetics related to this story.

The story is about a test of absolute obedience, even if it means murdering your own child to prove it. Granted, it's all fiction. A sick, twisted, fiction that makes sense to primitive bronze age sheepherders, the ancient Hebrews, whose culture included child sacrifice.

IMHO

Remember... this is Genesis.... this is before the law was set.... man was on his own... there were no laws.... Abraham had no roll model.... The way I read it, he really expected God to bring Isaac back to life... Man is a horrible creation.... evil to the core....

Abraham was neither a Hebrew or a Christian.... He was a human.... and most of the time.... a stupid human just like the rest.... but he listened to God...

 

[Radiant1]

PC, at the time many religions were performing human sacrifice. Whether you take this story literally or figuratively, the point is that the God of Abraham did not want human sacrifice. His people were to be set apart, different, not like the others. The entire Old Testament is this process at work; He re-creates them from the point of the Fall onward to the Last Covenant. In addition, this story heavily prefigures God the Father and God the Son because God had a better sacrifice in store for His people, which was Himself.

I could go on to the symbolic importance of why humans sacrificed themselves to their gods and how it's the penultimate show of love and that God didn't want that from us but rather did it for us, but I'll spare you all that stuff.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

IMHO

Remember... this is Genesis.... this is before the law was set.... man was on his own... there were no laws.... Abraham had no roll model.... The way I read it, he really expected God to bring Isaac back to life... Man is a horrible creation.... evil to the core....

Abraham was neither a Hebrew or a Christian.... He was a human.... and most of the time.... a stupid human just like the rest.... but he listened to God...

This story and hundreds of other's have a plethora of apologetics to rationalize the 'God of Abraham', a capricious, violent, and immoral god.

You may also be familiar with the story of Jephthah's daughter who ends up as a 'burnt offering' to god. Of course there are many apologetics for this story as well.

Bottom line, Christians will believe anything in order to rationalize an immoral god who condones human sacrifice, the taking virgins as spoils of war, and instructing his faithful on the rules for owning and beating their slaves. They believe not based on scripture, but on the apologetics for it.

And regarding your belief that "Man is a horrible creation"...if your 'god' is omnipotent and omniscient he could create man in any way he pleases. All evidence points to man as a bi-pedal primate, no different from any other animal life on earth. There is no credible evidence to support any of the thousands of gods ever invented by man, including yours.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

PC, at the time many religions were performing human sacrifice. Whether you take this story literally or figuratively, the point is that the God of Abraham did not want human sacrifice. His people were to be set apart, different, not like the others. The entire Old Testament is this process at work; He re-creates them from the point of the Fall onward to the Last Covenant. In addition, this story heavily prefigures God the Father and God the Son because God had a better sacrifice in store for His people, which was Himself.

I could go on to the symbolic importance of why humans sacrificed themselves to their gods and how it's the penultimate show of love and that God didn't want that from us but rather did it for us, but I'll spare you all that stuff.

Regarding human sacrifice you may want to examine the story of Jephthah's daughter. That any 'god' would require human sacrifice, really stems from primitive mythology, and deserves our ridicule. And deserves even more ridicule if the human sacrifice is both 'god and human'.

I'm glad you're sparing me the 'symbolic importance' etc, because I've heard it all before, and if you should realize that the whole story fits perfectly with bronze-age/early iron-age thinking and is similar to other mythologies and gods born of virgins, etc.

If you looked at it with the same critical thinking and logic that you use to evaluate the veracity of claims from other religions - I doubt for example you think Mohammad ascended to heaven on a winged horse - then you'd see the way I evaluate all religions, including Christianity.

That a creator deity of the universe would say or do any of this horsesh*t, is beyond absurd to me. That he would take a personal interest in what you do while naked, establish homosexual behavior as abhorrent, and not prohibit but support slavery...all the while expecting you to believe in him on bad evidence, else he will condemn you to eternal torture, fits perfectly with 2000 year old thinking - it made sense to them but it should not make sense to you. You need to deprogram yourself of the apologetics you're presenting which are just as absurd.

Tell me, seriously, would you believe any of it if the promise of eternal life was not part of the deal? And if you were not indoctrinated in Christianity from a young age? And an ego that tells you you're so special the universe was created with you in mind

 

[This_person]

This story and hundreds of other's have a plethora of apologetics to rationalize the 'God of Abraham', a capricious, violent, and immoral god.

...

Bottom line, Christians will believe anything in order to rationalize an immoral god...

By whose standards are you judging God "immoral"?

All evidence points to man as a bi-pedal primate, no different from any other animal life on earth. There is no credible evidence to support any of the thousands of gods ever invented by man, including yours.

Really? How many other animals wear clothing, cook food, build space ships, write sonnets, worship deities, etc.?

Do you really find your life as having no more meaning in the grand scheme of things than the ant you didn't even know you crushed as you were walking along today?

 

[Radiant1]

More Atheistic Fundie ranting

Good grief. Look, I was merely informing you of a different way that some Christians view the story, but I can see that you aren't interested in actual dialogue as you once were. You've become the crazy-shove-it-in-your face guy, no better than those fundie Christians that want to shove the bible down your throat. You've become a ranting lunatic.

Tell me, seriously, would you believe any of it if the promise of eternal life was not part of the deal? And if you were not indoctrinated in Christianity from a young age? And an ego that tells you you're so special the universe was created with you in mind

1. Yes.
2. I wasn't.
3. Until you can find a space alien superior to humans, then yes, more or less.

/enddiscussion

 

[seekeroftruth]

I thought about the comment PC made about the Hebrews being child killers. Let me remind you of the fact that Isaac was not a child.

According to the blueletterbible.org site Isaac was about 30 years old.

At this time, Abraham was more than 100 years old, and Isaac would have been able to get away had he chosen to. Yet he submits to his father perfectly. In remembering Abraham's faith, we should never forget Isaac's faith.

Jewish commentators think Isaac was in his thirties at the time of this event.​

We've all seen that throughout the Bible there are examples. IMHO it would make sense that Isaac was indeed in his 30's when this takes place. Consider the fact that Jesus was in His 30's when He gave His life for us.



With that said, it seems that those who are speaking against the Bible have some poop points that are memorized and spewed out when given the chance. So there is brainwashing going on in the "anti-God" side as well.... looks like it did indeed bounce off us and stick to you! LOL

 

[Radiant1]

With that said, it seems that those who are speaking against the Bible have some poop points that are memorized and spewed out when given the chance. So there is brainwashing going on in the "anti-God" side as well....

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Good grief. Look, I was merely informing you of a different way that some Christians view the story, but I can see that you aren't interested in actual dialogue as you once were. You've become the crazy-shove-it-in-your face guy, no better than those fundie Christians that want to shove the bible down your throat. You've become a ranting lunatic.
1. Yes.
2. I wasn't.
3. Until you can find a space alien superior to humans, then yes, more or less.
/enddiscussion

Better a Fundie Atheist than a Fundie Catholic.

Nobody likes to be told that their adamantly held beliefs are a lie. That's equivalent to telling them they're gullible and stupid. And, sorry to say, but you are because all faith is rooted in gullibility, ignorance, and self-deception. Faith is not a virtue, honey.

I'm sure you feel you have 'intelligent' reasons to believe in Catholic dogma and the apologetics for it. But if you could step back and truly look at it intelligently and rationally, you'd realize it's nothing but absurd horsesh*t. It's meant for control. When you spout Catholic dogma you're nothing more than a bleating sheep. A faithful ewe for Catholicism.

Women will always be marginalized by the RCC. The RCC seeks power, and integral to the RCC's beliefs are that women can never be equal with men. Perhaps you like to be marginalized? Or perhaps you just have a thing for men in robes and funny hats?

 

[Bird Dog]

Better a Fundie Atheist than a Fundie Catholic.

Nobody likes to be told that their adamantly held beliefs are a lie. That's equivalent to telling them they're gullible and stupid. And, sorry to say, but you are because all faith is rooted in gullibility, ignorance, and self-deception. Faith is not a virtue, honey.

I'm sure you feel you have 'intelligent' reasons to believe in Catholic dogma and the apologetics for it. But if you could step back and truly look at it intelligently and rationally, you'd realize it's nothing but absurd horsesh*t. It's meant for control. When you spout Catholic dogma you're nothing more than a bleating sheep. A faithful ewe for Catholicism.

Women will always be marginalized by the RCC. The RCC seeks power, and integral to the RCC's beliefs are that women can never be equal with men. Perhaps you like to be marginalized? Or perhaps you just have a thing for men in robes and funny hats?

Digging deep in your own poop now.......
Never met a Evangelical Atheist/Secular Progressive pastor before........

 

[Bird Dog]

Good grief. Look, I was merely informing you of a different way that some Christians view the story, but I can see that you aren't interested in actual dialogue as you once were. You've become the crazy-shove-it-in-your face guy, no better than those fundie Christians that want to shove the bible down your throat. You've become a ranting lunatic.



Until you can find a space alien superior to humans, then yes, more or less.

/enddiscussion

That's why he is ProximaCentauri....he is the space alien superior to Humans.....just sayin......

 

[littlelady]

Digging deep in your own poop now.......
Never met a Evangelical Atheist/Secular Progressive pastor before........

That's why he is ProximaCentauri....he is the space alien superior to Humans.....just sayin......

You're funny! I always read the Religion Forum, but don't comment much. I have commented to PC a couple of times, but really cannot fathom him. Thanks for the laughs.