Girl, 14, gave birth, then strangled baby

[MMM_donuts]

Well obviously I am not trying to sway your judgement. As for the personal conservation, you should not have it out in public forum if you don't expect comments as such. Take it to a private chat. As for the topic of pain in a fetus and at what stage, what is the point?

Could it be just a simple discussion of trying to understand if a fetus has pain? Medicine is an art just as much a science and when pain is felt or the leave of the receptor to understand pain IMO is junk science.

So the next question is if we logically say that if a fetus does not feel pain until 20 weeks, then hey, it is ok to abort (something I don't agree with)

There is a cool video John Lithgow did on fetal development.

Check it out.

NOVA | Life's Greatest Miracle

I don't need or want a private chat when I can hold a reasonable discussion here. I merely pointed out my intentions and boundaries of discussion to avoid misunderstandings. It also serves to inform you of why or why I would not responded to a post in which you have replied to me specifically.

The point (mine anyway) of discussing fetal pain is this: It is a valid contention point between the two sides of the debate. I think the decision to be pro-life, pro-choice, and/or pro-abortion is generally based on a sum of many factors therefore giving a metaphoric weight to each part. Medicine is not absolute but if someone can show me some sort of definitive/quantitative proof for or against a topic, it affects my personal decision. In this case, IMO, there is not definitive proof either for or against a fetus feeling pain so when I make my decision, I include that as a variable. Just as I would take into consideration whether an abortion is actually painful for the fetus.

That should kinda also answer your final question, too. For me, personally, whether the fetus feels pain or not a leading factor in my decision. For others it could be. If strong enough data came out, it might be.

And I'm not currently in an environment where I would be comfortable watching controversial vidoes. I will take a look later when that changes.

 

[Kris10]

:

 

[drivingdaisy]

:

Is that a picture of a horse getting an abortion?

kidding.

 

[JoeRider]

That should kinda also answer your final question, too. For me, personally, whether the fetus feels pain or not a leading factor in my decision. For others it could be. If strong enough data came out, it might be.

And I'm not currently in an environment where I would be comfortable watching controversial vidoes. I will take a look later when that changes.

Well, this site says 12 weeks.

Your baby now has a chin and a nose and a facial profile. Vocal chords are complete, and the baby can and does sometimes cry silently. The brain is fully formed, and the baby can also feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb.

http://www.baby2see.com/development/week12.html


As for pain, there are many studies that show the mother can feel separation pain their whole life either though abortion or adoption (as well as miscarriages). I will re-post some of the links if you are interested.

The miscarriage and stillborn stories are heart wrenching and are posted on the internet. We have some friends that have been through it and it is tough for me to handle. These stories just make you realize how valuable and important life really is. I do not recommend you search google at work for these stories because they are very graphic and disturbing and if you are sensitive you will be crying your eyes out for the rest of the day.

Abortion is not a one sided issue and about pain to the fetus. It affects everyone. Some just can not see that. Life goes on.

 

[JoeRider]

Week Six is where the brain develops.

http://www.baby2see.com/development/week6.html

 

[MMM_donuts]

Well, this site says 12 weeks.

Your baby now has a chin and a nose and a facial profile. Vocal chords are complete, and the baby can and does sometimes cry silently. The brain is fully formed, and the baby can also feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb.

http://www.baby2see.com/development/week12.html


As for pain, there are many studies that show the mother can feel separation pain their whole life either though abortion or adoption (as well as miscarriages). I will re-post some of the links if you are interested.

The miscarriage and stillborn stories are heart wrenching and are posted on the internet. We have some friends that have been through it and it is tough for me to handle. These stories just make you realize how valuable and important life really is. I do not recommend you search google at work for these stories because they are very graphic and disturbing and if you are sensitive you will be crying your eyes out for the rest of the day.

Abortion is not a one sided issue and about pain to the fetus. It affects everyone. Some just can not see that. Life goes on.

^ That is very emotional, not objective.

And I'll look at your links but I will not take them seriously unless they have decently credible resources. The above site does not.

And if one sided and all about the pain to the fetus is what you took from my previous post then we are not communicating.

 

[JoeRider]

^ That is very emotional, not objective.

And I'll look at your links but I will not take them seriously unless they have decently credible resources. The above site does not.

And if one sided and all about the pain to the fetus is what you took from my previous post then we are not communicating.

Which links?

Silent Scream, not that creditable, but is just as creditable as some of the pro-abortion sites that seem to be focused on the ideal that if it doesn't cause pain, it is ok to abort.

Why would the link at six week not be creditable. Pretty much in line with standard Fetal development education classes. Not rocket science here, just standard biology.

As for the John Lithrow's "Life's Greatest Miracle" on PBS (the liberal bastion of pro choice), why is it not not be creditable?

This is the embryo four and a half weeks after fertilization. It is only about a fifth of an inch long. The primitive backbone now curls into a tail, which will disappear in a few weeks. A large brain is developing, and on the side of the head: an eye.

The show is a very cool show but if you are thinking of an abortion, it is not the one to watch. "Life's Greatest Miracle" is a beautiful thing if you look at if from a purely scientific thing.

Not sure how you can discount the emotional side of things. It rules our life. We are not Spock from Star Trek.

The Life's Greatest Miracle" says the "neuro tubes (the brain) are making connections at 3 weeks", thus it is possible that a fetus could know pain at 3 weeks (28 minutes Chapter 3 0f 5)

 

[MMM_donuts]

Which links?

Silent Scream, not that creditable, but is just as creditable as some of the pro-abortion sites that seem to be focused on the ideal that if it doesn't cause pain, it is ok to abort.

I was only refering to the six weeks link. I have yet to look at the other two. If you are going to discuss abortion with me, specifically, please don't generalize me into any category other than being willing (to an extent) to objectively listen to why you feel the way you do. Do not include me into a group of some incredible pro-abortionist radicals as I have never demonstrated even a remotely similar behavior.

Why would the link at six week not be creditable. Pretty much in line with standard Fetal development education classes. Not rocket science here, just standard biology.

It has no data, no references, nothing. How can I cross reference the medical validity of the claim vs any personal agenda? It doesn't even identify the contributing authors to the site. "Standard biology" is a debatable term.

As for the John Lithrow's "Life's Greatest Miracle" on PBS (the liberal bastion of pro choice), why is it not not be creditable?

Wasn't refering to this one either.

This is the embryo four and a half weeks after fertilization. It is only about a fifth of an inch long. The primitive backbone now curls into a tail, which will disappear in a few weeks. A large brain is developing, and on the side of the head: an eye.

The show is a very cool show but if you are thinking of an abortion, it is not the one to watch. "Life's Greatest Miracle" is a beautiful thing if you look at if from a purely scientific thing.

I assume you are speaking directly to me, which I must reply that abortion has never and will never be a personal decision for me as I have eliminated the possibility of ever becoming pregnant.

Not sure how you can discount the emotional side of things. It rules our life. We are not Spock from Star Trek.

Because it opens up an entirely different and much more personal conversation that truly would be more apporpriate of a private chat, if even that is appropriate between strangers. And emotions are relative to the individual. It's not that I don't want to discuss emotion, it's just that I am not confident in our ability to communicate appropriately.

The Life's Greatest Miracle" says the "neuro tubes (the brain) are making connections at 3 weeks", thus it is possible that a fetus could know pain at 3 weeks (28 minutes Chapter 3 0f 5)

I may one day feel differently about abortion but as it stands, I would never make that decision for another woman.

 

[JoeRider]

I may one day feel differently about abortion but as it stands, I would never make that decision for another woman.

You make a decision about other lives on a daily basis just by how you live your life and act as a role model.

Ok, I have given you enough and if you are still skeptical, than too bad. Just do a search on google for Stages of Prenatal Development.

The first stage is ectoderm when the nervous system develops - pretty much the 1st 4 weeks. I provides visuals for you with my links. If you don't accept it, then so be it.

The attitude of you don't choose for women is a simplistic view. It is more than just a women, it is life it self. We treat the killing of our pet more and death row prisoners more humanely than aborted fetus and the support to dying elderly and sick. Hopefully someday we will face up to what we are doing (or not doing).

 

[Baja28]

^ That is very emotional, not objective.

And I'll look at your links but I will not take them seriously unless they have decently credible resources. The above site does not. Here here!

And if one sided and all about the pain to the fetus is what you took from my previous post then we are not communicating.

Joe Rider's links are a joke not to mention biased. I'll stick with the medical experts over the bloggers.


Here are sites that use real doctors and university studies.

This site says 28 weeks: Can a Fetus Feel Pain? U.K. Report Says No. - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

This one says 18-20 weeks: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

And this one says 35 weeks!! Preemies Feel Pain at 37 Weeks Gestation, Says Study - ABC News

 

[Baja28]

This says 8 weeks: When Does a Fetus Feel Pain? | Family Health | DISCOVER Magazine Where does it say that? It says 28 weeks.

This says 7 weeks: Does the Fetus Feel Pain? Summary of a Presentation given by Dr. Paul Ranalli on Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion This one says 20 weeks but it's from 1997.

This says 5 weeks: Anatomy of Pain – This one also says 20 weeks.

What am I missing?

 

[withrespect]

What am I missing?

Welcome to my world, honey. This is how I feel every day.

Come to WR

 

[Baja28]

Welcome to my world, honey. This is how I feel every day.

Come to WR

 

[JoeRider]

Joe Rider's links are a joke not to mention biased. I'll stick with the medical experts over the bloggers.


Here are sites that use real doctors and university studies.

This site says 28 weeks: Can a Fetus Feel Pain? U.K. Report Says No. - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

This one says 18-20 weeks: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

And this one says 35 weeks!! Preemies Feel Pain at 37 Weeks Gestation, Says Study - ABC News

Real News Doctors that is funny.

Don't show me linked to a group of UK PHD's that tell you their study proved that pain is felt in 18-20 week, show me where they say that the nervous system develops later than week 4. BTW, the links don't say that pain is not felt at less than say 35 weeks, it just say based on EEG's by pricking the feet of a fetus (which is warp in my opinion).

So you do have to make a leap of faith about pain since it can't be tested, but if you look at the basic view that this complex fetus can control a beating heart, it can feel. About the only thing some of the studies prove is that younger that say 18 weeks the fetus is in a sleep like state, thus can not feel anything. This is all conjecture to say such. They can not prove a fetus does not feel pain, just like they can not prove a fetus does. If I was a betting man, I would bet in favor that the baby can feel, especially since biology does prove that the neuro-system is developed to a point to physically allow the fetus to have a heartbeat.

Here, I trust the Mayo Clinic before some warped scientist that get their jollies poking fetus feet to see if they experience pain.


Fetal development: The first trimester - MayoClinic.com

The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.


Except for the Silent Scream link, they are less bias than your so call "news" links.

 

[JoeRider]

Joe Rider's links are a joke not to mention biased. I'll stick with the medical experts over the bloggers.


Here are sites that use real doctors and university studies.

This site says 28 weeks: Can a Fetus Feel Pain? U.K. Report Says No. - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

This one says 18-20 weeks: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

And this one says 35 weeks!! Preemies Feel Pain at 37 Weeks Gestation, Says Study - ABC News

A few links below your posted links:

 

[JoeRider]

Do a search on fetus feels pain that there is a study out there that says that the alarm receptors that feel pain are in fully in place at 7 weeks (based on rat studies).

The Youtube video sums it up for me. Combine with Mayo Clinic I favor the fetus feels at 4 weeks. I guess we will differ as to when. At least I have more compassion.

 

[Chasey_Lane]

What am I missing?

You're confusing "pain" and "pain receptors."

 

[kwillia]

At least I have more compassion.

You have a house full of foster children?

 

[JoeRider]

You're confusing "pain" and "pain receptors."

kinda a waste to have them around when then. It is pretty bad to what extent people will go to to not feel guilty about supporting abortion.

The whole things almost is a B flick horror movie - smashing heads and poking feet.

At least vraiblonde just comes right out an says abort up to 18 years of age. (I think she said that).

 

[Baja28]

Real News Doctors that is funny.

Don't show me linked to a group of UK PHD's that tell you their study proved that pain is felt in 18-20 week, show me where they say that the nervous system develops later than week 4. BTW, the links don't say that pain is not felt at less than say 35 weeks, it just say based on EEG's by pricking the feet of a fetus (which is warp in my opinion).

So you do have to make a leap of faith about pain since it can't be tested, but if you look at the basic view that this complex fetus can control a beating heart, it can feel. About the only thing some of the studies prove is that younger that say 18 weeks the fetus is in a sleep like state, thus can not feel anything. This is all conjecture to say such. They can not prove a fetus does not feel pain, just like they can not prove a fetus does. If I was a betting man, I would bet in favor that the baby can feel, especially since biology does prove that the neuro-system is developed to a point to physically allow the fetus to have a heartbeat.

Here, I trust the Mayo Clinic before some warped scientist that get their jollies poking fetus feet to see if they experience pain.


Fetal development: The first trimester - MayoClinic.com

The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.


Except for the Silent Scream link, they are less bias than your so call "news" links.

Your mayo clinic link proves nothing about pain. And my "news links" as you call them are real studies done by real doctors at real universities. I doubt you even read them.

I don't expect anyone who believes that life begins the second the sperm hits the egg to have any rational thought or to understand facts.