Gun Control for Maryland

[Bruzilla]

Now that we have someone as a Governor who isn't a knee-jerk, feel-good law passing, ranting on the NRA, liberal, I think that now would be agood time to discuss what laws should come, stay, or go out the door with the garbage currently leaving Annapolis.

I've been a member of the NRA since 1982, I currently own two pistols, one revolver, and five rifles (two of which are assault rifles), and am a registered collector in Maryland. So here's the rules that I would pass if I were annointed Gun Czar

1. Ballistic Fingerprinting. All new guns would need to have a spent bullet and shell casing forwarded to the State Police for BF purposes. These would be tied to the originating gun's serial number, not to the owner. This information is available through transfer records, so there's no need for yet another gun owner database that can be used for illicit purposes. Owners of older guns could voluntarily take their guns to the local MSP barrack and have them fired in tanks that would be installed for this purpose. Again, the bullet/casing would be referenced to the gun's serial number only.

Yeah, I know all the arguments against BF, but the fact is that while it's not a perfect way to help cops catch the bad guys, over time it would help solve some cases.

2. Instant Background Checks. The South Carolina model would be adopted. Gun buyers would present a driver's license to the gun seller, who would call the buyer's ID information into a central clearing center. Once the buyer came back with a clean record he/she could pay for the gun and take it home provided they had purchased at least one gun previously. A five-day waiting period would be required for first-time gun buyers only. People who already have guns don't need a cooling off period.

3. Concealed Carry Permits. Anyone not convicted of a violent felony or under a restraining order could be issued a permit provided they complete the NRA Handgun Safety course. The MSP would no longer be responsible for developing firearms safety classes... they fight crime, the NRA has the experience in teaching firearms safety. The only places where guns could not be carried would be schools and any place where the primary business is selling consumable alcohol. Package stores, grocery stores, restaurants, etc., would not be covered... just bars.

4. Mandatory Firearms Safety Training for Children. All Maryland children in grades three and eight would be required to complete an NRA firearms saftey course that would be provided as a part of the public school curriculum.

5. Purchase Restrictions. Any Maryland resident who has not been convicted of a violent felony, or isn't under a restraining order, can purchase any Class 1 firearm. There would be no more purchase restrictions for people convicted of non-violent felonies.

6. Implement Project Exile.

7. Gun Shows. Any gun show promoter would be required to provide free phone access for dealers to make insta-checks. There would be no other un-due restrictions on gun shows.

8. Possession of a Gun in a Vehicle. Any gun owner could have and keep a loaded gun in their vehicle provided it is in a strapped holster; or contained in a closed console or glove compartment; or is under a seat where it is not readily accessable.

That's a good start in my opinion. Please let me know what you think.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'd go for all of them except 4, even though it's a good idea for kids to be familiar with firearms. There will be some parents who absolutely don't want their children touching a gun, and that's their right. Kind of like the sex ed classes they do - it could be offered and parents can come by to review the materials and have their child excused from it if they want.

How about that?

 

[Sharon]

1)

2)

3) BUT - It should be up to the business owner what they decide their policy should be, not the state's. I feel the same way about the smoking policy.

4) BUT - This should be a parental decision not the schools. Guns aren't allowed in school, so it'll never happen.

5)

6)

7) Should be an option for the promoter.

8) Anyone? Or perople with concealed carry permits? Personally if I had concealed carry I would rather have it on my body then locked in the glove box etc.

Also it doesn't make sense for anyone who has a handgun to carry in their car if they are not instructed properly in it's use or doesn't have a concealed carry permit.

 

[Sharon]

On the subject of guns. Here's an interesting article from Business Week and poll results at the bottom of the page.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2002/nf2002111_7306.htm

 

[Ken King]

1. I don’t think it will do anything but create a database of gun owners. Besides the science hasn’t been perfected and until it is I think this is a no-go. How would you handle weapons that are repaired or modified?

2. Seems reasonable.

3. Why have a permit at all if you aren’t in violation of Federal laws to possess a gun you should be able to carry it with you openly or concealed.

4. Don’t know about this one or if there should be any mandatory training at all. Maybe demonstrations or something along those lines, but if a parent doesn’t want their child exposed to a weapon then they shouldn’t be.

5. Again, if you aren’t in violation of Federal laws to possess a weapon then there should be no restriction.

6. Agreed, but toughen it some. Make sentences for committing a crime real punishment and not a joke. Revamp the entire justice system. If you use a weapon in the commission of a crime, tack on some more hard time.

7. Sounds reasonable. If you plan on selling guns you should make sure that the purchaser is not a criminal trying to obtain one.

8. See my response to number 3 above. Shouldn’t matter if you are walking, sitting at home, or driving a vehicle.

 

[SeaRide]

1. There are many gunsmiths-at-home around the country. Won't work very well.

2.

3. i.e: man walking around with a gun OPENLY on the playground on the condos property , i.e.: man just step off his sailboat with a pistol holstered in downtown Annapolis waterfront. Just to name a few for now..

4. I agree with Ken. But with test for Grade 8 kids to be sure they were really paying attention in gun safety class. If they failed the test , then what?? Grade 3 kids probably would understand some basic gun safety stuff but not much.

5. i.e.; transplants from other states becomes MD resident within a year ( or is it six month?) convicted of non-violent felonies CAN become violent felonies easy! i.e. a bad guy going from robbery(<--non-violent) to ARMED (<--violent) robbery .. restraining order are issued by the court of county, right? how does one check for restraining order on that person from another state? is it possible? let's say a person has restraining order that says she/he is not to be around kids under 18.. how do you justify this?

6. Agree with Ken.

7. I guess it's okay but I agree with what Ken says. Any old man could sell his gun to a young soon-to-be murderer. Drug addict pawned off the gun to get money but if the pawn shop owner couldn't satisfy the drug addict over the money then the drug addict would just either rob him or kill him. Something is missing that need to prevent this from happening.

8. I know it won't work in most states where I would travel.
Here's one from WV DNR regulation.
It's Illegal to:

• have a loaded firearm or a firearm with an attached magazine from which all shells have not been removed in or on any vehicle or land conveyance or its attachments. You can have a loaded clip or magazine in the vehicle as long as it is not in or attached to the firearm, except for concealed weapons permit holders.
  
• carry an uncased or loaded firearm in the woods, except during open firearms hunting seasons. It is legal to hunt unprotected species of wild animals, wild birds and migratory game birds during the open season in fields, waters and marshes.
  
• Carry an uncased gun in or on a vehicle between 5 p.m. and 7 a.m. E.S.T. from October 1 to June 30; and between 8:30 p.m. and 5 a.m. EST from July 1 to September 30.
  Carry an uncased or loaded gun after 5 a.m. on Sunday in counties which prohibit Sunday hunting, except at a regularly used firearm range, or except as provided in the trapping regulations.
  
• use or take advantage of artificial light in hunting, locating, attracting, or trapping wild birds or wild animals while in possession or control of any firearm, whether cased or uncased, bow, arrow, or other implement suitable for taking, killing or trapping a wild bird or animal. However, lights ordinarily carried on the person may be used for taking raccoon, skunk and opossum. No person shall be guilty merely because he uses an artificial light to look for, at, or attract a wild bird or animal, unless he has in his possession a firearm, whether cased or uncased, bow, arrow, or other implement suitable for taking, killing or trapping a wild bird or animal, or unless the artificial light (other than the headlamps of a vehicle or other land conveyance) is attached to, a part of, or used from a vehicle or other land conveyance.

 

[Bruzilla]

Seems like there are still people opposed to the BF law. So let's look at the obvious...

No... BF records will not be of much use if a person alters a gun, but it will help if they don't alter the gun. The ability to match shell casings to guns has been around for decades, yet few criminals go to the effort to pick them up (obviously they usually can't retrieve the bullets.) If criminals won't spend time retrieving very damning evidence, what makes you think that they will go to the trouble of altering their guns? Criminals generally do not expect to ever get caught, so they don't worry much about gun matches.

I've bought my first AR-15 rifle back in 1982, and have owned multiple versions of this rifle since. Most AR-15 owners own multiple upper receivers (which include the barrel) and bolt carriers (which hold the extractor.) So I am well aware of how easy it is to swap out components on most modern pistols and rifles (especially military weapons.) That said, I just don't see criminals going to the bother or expense of buying extra parts or doing a amateur gunsmithing job.

In regards to the wear and tear argument, I think that the recent sniper attacks have shown that this is invalid argument. The FBI and the police have been able to match slugs that were fired many months apart, and we know for a fact that the gun was definately being fired. It takes thousands and thousands of rounds being fired to wear away rifling and most criminals aren't doing a lot of extensive target shooting.

Let's look at a worst-case situation. Assume that half of the guns out there used in a crime have either been altered or have shot out barrels (a completely improbably number by the way), that still means that 50% of the bullets/casings could be traced back to a serial number. Since only about 30% of most current shooting crimes are solved, I think that the 50% number looks pretty good.

As for the records issue, that's why I think the guns should be tracked by serial number and not the owner. Owners change, serial numbers don't. Once the cops get the serial number of the gun they can use the existing sales records to trace the transfer history. That may not lead to the bad guy but's a great place to start when you have nothing else to go on (a HUGE problem in stranger on stranger crime.) Will it take years to build up a database? Sure. But it took decades to build up the human fingerprint databases too and who thinks those are a bad idea?

Vrai and Ken, good point on the parental consent thing. Parents should have the right to object if they don't want their kids handling firearms. But I think they should also be banned from filing lawsuits in the event their kid is injured or killed in an accidental shooting.

 

[vraiblonde]

Bru, I'll tell you what I'd do in my own little fascist world: If you purchase a gun, you and everyone in your household must take a gun safety course. That includes the children over age...let's say maybe 4 or so. They could be age appropriate courses - little kids get a "don't touch" lesson, older kids actually handle and fire the weapon.

Now what about laws for when some maniac kid steals their parents' gun and goes on a shooting spree? Not that it happens very often, and safety locks and crap like that aren't the answer. Maybe let's think about some of the reasons we'd be AGAINST unfettered gun access and go from there?

 

[SeaRide]

Bru, For the BF thing.. how does this work if I buy a rifle for my brother for his birthday/xmas whatever (my name or his name in the record?), 20 years later somebody stole it from him.. the criminal use the rifle when I am dead due to heartattack ten years before... I mean how would cops trace it? back to me as a corpse? or to my brother if he's alive? Unless you want to add lots of rules/restrictions for the BF thing to work?

 

[Bruzilla]

Vrai, the "Raging Boy Child" scenario doesn't really lend itself to any law. Some kid that wants to snag a gun and go on a killing or shooting spree won't be deterred by any law that you or I could ever devise. That's just the nature of freedom of choice.

Now to the unfettered access thing. First, a gun that's for self defense, that's kept unloaded and/or unaccessable, is useless. So passing any laws that require guns to be locked away and/or unloaded defeats the purpose of having one for home security. Speaking realistically, the core reason for restricting access to guns is to protect younger kids from hurting themselves and others. Most of these cases occur when a kid discovers the gun that mom or dad had "carefully" hidden under the bed, in the nightstand, or in the top of the closet... places where no curious kid would ever look. The kid has no idea how to handle the gun, or tell it's loaded, aside from what they saw on TV or at the movies. This is where I think the mandatory forearms training for kids would do far more than access laws. Once you dispel the mystique and curiosity of the gun, the kids lose interest and move onto your skin mag collection. We've seen how well hiding or restricting access to kids has worked in regards to porn, drugs, cigarettes, and booze, why should we be surprised when the same policy for guns also fails? I think education and experience is a far better way to beat the access problem than new laws.

And for the record, I really hate laws where you punish parents if their kid gets a hold of a gun and kills someone. In the event of an accidental shooting, usually one kid is either wounded or dead, and the shooter is highly traumatized. What a great time to tell a kid that aside from the fact that they've wounded or killed a sibling or friend, they are now responsible for sending mommy and daddy to prison. That's a sure fire recipe for creating sociopaths.

SeaRide, under my rules, unless you bought the theoretical rifle new, there would be no BF data unless you or your brother voluntarilly took it to the MSP to have the test shot done. If you bought it new the test shot would already have been done. Most firearms are sold to a dealer directly or through a jobber, in either case the transaction can be traced. When the dealer sells the gun to a customer, another transfer record is generated. Since I'm not a dealer I have no idea what the legal requiremement is for keeping these records, but I would guess dealers keep them for seven to ten years (I know I would go for 10.) Plus the US Gov keeps them on record.

Now, if your gun was stolen, I would hope that you or your brother would file a police report about it (if you don't you're pretty stupid.) The cops will enter the gun's data into the NCIC database. It's SOP with most police agencies (including the MSP) to run any criminal's gun's serial number through NCIC to see if it were stolen. The same would apply here. Once a BF match was made, the SN would be run through NCIC and if it was ever reported stolen it would notify the cops of that fact. If the gun had never been entered into the BF system, there would be no record and the cops would be out of luck.

So to answer your question, if this gun were stolen, the cops wouldn't be able to do much than talk to the cops who investigated the theft and see what they turned up (a method that has solved more than a few crimes.) If it were registed by you and you died, either someone in your family would know the disposition of your firearm if you gave it to a family member or friend, or if the gun somehow made it's way back to a dealer there would be a fresh trail of owners to track it through.

Like I've said before, BN is not a panacea for solving all gun crimes, but it is not entirely useless either. And its effectiveness will grow each year that it's in place and as more and more guns get entered into the system. It may take 20 years to get to full effectiveness, but think how easier it will be to apprehend even 30 percent of the criminals using guns then.

Stranger on Stranger crimes are extremely difficult to solve since there are no social or family links between the victim and the attacker. If the snipers hadn't been so greedy/stupid, they would probably still be on the loose since the cops really have no place at all to start looking. With BF they may at least get a way to start looking somewhere and for someone, and that's a big start.

 

[SeaRide]

Originally posted by Bruzilla

Now, if your gun was stolen, I would hope that you or your brother would file a police report about it (if you don't you're pretty stupid.) The cops will enter the gun's data into the NCIC database. It's SOP with most police agencies (including the MSP) to run any criminal's gun's serial number through NCIC to see if it were stolen. The same would apply here. Once a BF match was made, the SN would be run through NCIC and if it was ever reported stolen it would notify the cops of that fact. If the gun had never been entered into the BF system, there would be no record and the cops would be out of luck.

Of course my brother or I would file a police report about it. Now, when you say "cops will enter the gun's data" , how would I know or remember the serial number 20 years later? Would you remember the gun dealer's name 20 years later? how many people keep papers in the file? Oh yeah I would be able to describe what kind of gun it is but that's it. It would be great if everyone keep some kind of papers with serial numbers in the file after so many years. How realistic is that?

I do like the idea of BF very much. I am just looking at it logically and want to debate on it. I just want to see how this idea comes along.
Keep it up!

 

[SmallTown]

One things that is kinda funny is the whole idea behind mandatory gun training in schools. I'm not really for that, but what is funny is that people rush their kids out to drivers ed schools like there is no tomorrow.. The kid has a much higher chance of getting killed while in the car than by a gun. Yet they don't see a problem with that. Gotta love the American logic.

 

[Bruzilla]

SeaRide, the cops would get the data from the bullet ro shell casing that was received and matched to the gun that you had bought. Let's say you buy a new gun that's been through the BF process, and it gets stolen 20 years from now and is used in a crime. The police get the bullet and/or a casing, and are able to match the bullet to your gun. They first will run the SN through NCIC, and provided you reported it stolen, it will show up as being stolen from you on Nov 8, 2022. The police will know you didn't have the gun, so they can contact the local cops who are investigating the theft and see if they have any leads. This may not lead them to the shooter, but it gives them a great place to start looking.

BTW, I think gun owners should know the SNs of every gun that they have or have had. Certainly not in their heads, but I keep mine written down in a journal that I keep seperate from my guns. I also keep SNs of TVs, VCRs, cars, my boat and engine, etc., in there in case an item gets stolen. I have also kept the names, addresses, and DL numbers of everyone I ever sold a gun to before private transfers were banned. That way if a criminal's actions ever did come back to me I would be able to tell the cops who had the gun after I did and exactly when I sold it. I have this info going back to the first gun I ever purchased back in 1982. It's not much work, and well worth the little bit of effort to keep your behind covered.

SmallTown... the issue is this. We teach our kids not to run through parking lots or with scissors, we teach them not to stick metal objects in the electric socket, we teach them not to talk to strangers, we teach them not to do many things that will get them hurt but many people are afraid to teach their kids firearms safety.

Most accidental shootings occur in the home when a child finds a loaded gun. I took my kids out to the gun range when they were about six in order to demystify them. They liked shotting my .22 rifle, but hated firing my Beretta 92. And they REALLY hated having to take the guns apart and cleaning them. But in the end, there was nothing mysterious about guns to them and they never had any curiosity about them.

Most parents get a gun and think that their smart enough to find a good hiding place where the kids will never find it. They may even tell their kids to never, ever, touch it. Yeah... that's a good way to de-mystify guns. So in the end, when a kid finds one of these ingeniously hidden guns, all that they know about them is what they've seen on TV or at the movies, and they treat the gun like a toy right up until it goes off. I would like to see every MD kid learn what guns are, what they can do, how to identify real guns from toy guns, how to tell if a gun is loaded, and what to do if they ever come across a gun.

Now, imagine that after this training.... after a kid has gone out to a pistol range and fired a gun and been scared by the noise and recoil, that he stumbles across Daddy's gun in the closet. Don't you think he would be much, much, less likely to just start pulling the trigger? I think he would either not pick it up, or he would check to see if it was loaded and then not pull the trigger... most likely the former option. That's the response that we want from kids... not playing cops and robbers with something they don't understand.