Hell Versus The Mercy And Justice Of God

[Marie]

I ran across this contemplating how the atonement is unnecessary if there is no Hell. Obviously our deep thinker JPC, never got deep enough in thought to consider this last line, even after another person suggested it in another post

[Behind the idea that hell is contrary to mercy and kindness, is the
premise that mercy would force God not to punish to such a degree. But mercy that is forced is not free. It is therefore not mercy at all, but obligation or compulsion.

Which goes right along with his yoke of legalism that he would have you buy into, rather than recieving Gods free gift of salvation.

"Such an eternal destiny as hell would be unimaginably horrible. Many
wonder how a kind and merciful God could allow such suffering. To these
people Edwards responds with several arguments. For one thing, supposing
that God's mercy would not permit his creatures to experience great degrees
of suffering leads us into a problem. Obviously human misery is not unbearable
for God to behold, because the plain fact is that God does allow plenty
of it to exist in the world. As Gerstner paraphrases Edwards: "Empirical
facts settle one point indisputably: God and creature-pain are not mutually
exclusive."If a merciful God cannot bear eternal misery, then the same
characteristic would surely argue against lesser degrees of misery as well.
Secondly, Edwards says that God's mercy should not be construed as a passion
or an emotion that overcomes his determination as a judge to see penal
justice carried out. If God's mercy were that kind of characteristic it would
be a defect in God, not a praiseworthy characteristic. It would show him as
weak and inconsistent with himself, not fit to be a judge. Finally Edwards
points out that the idea of mercy presupposes the prerogative to display it
or not to display it. A judge is in no case obligated to show mercy to criminals.
Behind the idea that hell is contrary to mercy and kindness is the
premise that mercy would force God not to punish to such a degree. But
mercy that is forced is not free. It is therefore not mercy at all, but obligation or compulsion." (BRUCE W. DAVIDSON)[/LEFT]
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/38/38-1/JETS_38-1_047-056_Davidson.pdf

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

Hell Versus The Mercy And Justice Of God

I ran across this contemplating how the atonement is unnecessary if there is no Hell.

[Behind the idea that hell is contrary to mercy and kindness, is the
premise that mercy would force God not to punish to such a degree. But mercy that is forced is not free. It is therefore not mercy at all, but obligation or compulsion.

Which goes right along with his yoke of legalism that he would have you buy into, rather than receiving Gods free gift of salvation.

"Such an eternal destiny as hell would be unimaginably horrible. Many
wonder how a kind and merciful God could allow such suffering.

If God's mercy were that kind of characteristic it would
be a defect in God, not a praiseworthy characteristic. It would show him as
weak and inconsistent with himself, not fit to be a judge. ..."

(BRUCE W. DAVIDSON)
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/38/38-1/JETS_38-1_047-056_Davidson.pdf

The thing is that such mercy and forgiveness is indeed "forced" (as you call it) because that force comes from the cross and the sacrifice of Christ who paid the full price for the sins of all of humanity, and as such it is no longer an option or a choice as it is a done deal.

And it is correct that the mercy and forgiveness and universal salvation is now an "obligation and compulsion" (as you call it) because Jesus Christ demanded such from His sacrifice on the cross, so now no one is to be punished or burned in a "Hell" because the price is paid in full.

The fact that you (and that preacher you quote) see such supreme mercy and absolute forgiveness as being a "weakness" and a defect of God's character and unfitting for a Judge is totally contrary to the Gospel message of unconditional love, as in love thy enemies.

There is no such place as "hell" except a person's grave, while true un-human "justice" really does mean mercy and forgiveness and unconditional love.

 

[foodcritic]

The thing is that such mercy and forgiveness is indeed "forced" (as you call it) because that force comes from the cross and the sacrifice of Christ who paid the full price for the sins of all of humanity, and as such it is no longer an option or a choice as it is a done deal.

And it is correct that the mercy and forgiveness and universal salvation is now an "obligation and compulsion" (as you call it) because Jesus Christ demanded such from His sacrifice on the cross, so now no one is to be punished or burned in a "Hell" because the price is paid in full.

The fact that you (and that preacher you quote) see such supreme mercy and absolute forgiveness as being a "weakness" and a defect of God's character and unfitting for a Judge is totally contrary to the Gospel message of unconditional love, as in love thy enemies.

There is no such place as "hell" except a person's grave, while true un-human "justice" really does mean mercy and forgiveness and unconditional love.

You quote the scriptures when you find the convenient and then in another chat you will tell us all how the bible is filled with stories and fables. So in essence no one can believe anything you say.

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

You quote the scriptures when you find the convenient and then in another chat you will tell us all how the bible is filled with stories and fables. So in essence no one can believe anything you say.

Well I do NOT ask anyone to believe me as I am just the messenger.

That is why I give Bible quotes and various links and give solid explanations so that people can see the truth in the message.

When one has certain people they do believe and other people as they do not believe then they are being "respecters of persons" which the Bible specifically tells us not to do that.

See Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

And James 2:1-9 link HERE.

Verse 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

I do not claim to be some Prophet or Priest as I am just the person delivering the message, so if you reject the message just because of your prejudice against myself then your own sin keeps yourself in the blind.

 

[foodcritic]

Well I do NOT ask anyone to believe me as I am just the messenger.

That is why I give Bible quotes and various links and give solid explanations so that people can see the truth in the message.

When one has certain people they do believe and other people as they do not believe then they are being "respecters of persons" which the Bible specifically tells us not to do that.

See Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

And James 2:1-9 link HERE.

Verse 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

I do not claim to be some Prophet or Priest as I am just the person delivering the message, so if you reject the message just because of your prejudice against myself then your own sin keeps yourself in the blind.

Again

You quote the scriptures when you find the convenient and then in another chat you will tell us all how the bible is filled with stories and fables. So in essence no one can believe anything you say.

You simply quote more bible verses of which you don't completely believe in.

 

[hvp05]

You simply quote more bible verses of which you don't completely believe in.

As I said in another thread, I think he has 5 or 6 quotes he repeats regularly. The rest of the Bible he could not care less about.

But he'll defend every single word of the Quran... and then, naturally, claim he is not a Muslim.

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

You simply quote more bible verses of which you don't completely believe in.

I certainly do believe what I posted, and I do believe what I quoted, and I do believe what I say.

Who the hell do you think your self are? to be telling me what I believe.

You do not give your own beliefs and yet you pretend to speak for my beliefs.

What a fraud.

 

[hvp05]

Who the hell do you think your self are?

Can we expect this same level of diplomacy if you are elected?

You do not give your own beliefs and yet you pretend to speak for my beliefs.

His representation of your beliefs can not put you in a worse light than that which you put yourself. Maybe a little better.

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

... ... ...

I take it that both of you two only want to talk about me and of course attacking the messenger might be your only weapon, but why not respect the Forum? or the fact that it is a religious discussion? or that some Lady starts a thread while you two trash her thread? as forum bullies that can not respect people or rules or common courtesies.

There are plenty of threads about me to cut me down on, and you two could start your own threads instead of trashing the threads of others.

Both of you have been on the Forums for years and your kind are why decent people do not participate more on our community forum.

 

[hvp05]

or that some Lady starts a thread while you two trash her thread?

I can equally ask why you are assuming responsibility of speaking for her. How do you know she does not agree with us?

IMO, this thread was trashed as soon as you submitted your reply.

 

[foodcritic]

I certainly do believe what I posted, and I do believe what I quoted, and I do believe what I say.

Who the hell do you think your self are? to be telling me what I believe.

You do not give your own beliefs and yet you pretend to speak for my beliefs.

What a fraud.

You may believe what you posted. But you have stated that the bible is not a literal book and that it is full of allegory and legend. I have read where you state in essence that same thing. DO YOU DENY IT? If you don't then you have no business quoting bible passages to make a point. Because you reject the bible as the holy word of God.

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

You may believe what you posted. But you have stated that the bible is not a literal book and that it is full of allegory and legend. I have read where you state in essence that same thing. DO YOU DENY IT? If you don't then you have no business quoting bible passages to make a point. Because you reject the bible as the holy word of God.

Parts of the Bible are fakes and parts allegories and parts are true and correct.

And if we go according to the Bible then Jesus Himself is the "holy word of God" and the Bible is not, per John 1:1 and 1:14 link HERE.

I see no problem at all in me using the Bible to make my points, as it is my business and I am the one using the Bible correctly.

"Marie" is preaching a wrong doctrine of a cruel and inhuman form of justice of burning people, while that is so extremely wrong and it is opposite of the true Gospel message.

 

[Marie]

You may believe what you posted. But you have stated that the bible is not a literal book and that it is full of allegory and legend. I have read where you state in essence that same thing. DO YOU DENY IT? If you don't then you have no business quoting bible passages to make a point. Because you reject the bible as the holy word of God.

He rejects Jesus Christ as being God and if he wasn't fully God and fully man than his sacrifice could not acquire salvation for anyone.
Man need another man to pay his sin debt, but no man was qualified except for Christ as he led a perfect sinless life. Without being God he would have been sinful, as well as not fulfilled his own covenant he made with Abraham. Only the smoking pot, a preincarnate Christ passed between the two half's and since Abraham was asleep and Abraham broke the covenant with God, God was required to die. He fulfilled that on the cross.

So his theology is wack, in that a federal head of Christ is OK when it suits his purpose of stating his false doctrine, but he denies the deity of Christ, and the Trinity. His god cant save anyone as it doesn't exist. His jesus is only a prophet which cant be a good man, as according to JPC he lies about who he says that he is, never mind that the Jews believed him enough to want to, and did kill him for it, although he defeated death. I sometimes wonder if he ever read the Old testament, as his god is not the one spoken of there. In fact that God doesn't exist in his ramblings.
Tell us JPC, where did he disappear to in your theology?

 

[thunderclapp]

Who the hell do you think your self are? to be telling me what I believe.

There is no hell. Remember? Touchy aren't we?

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

I sometimes wonder if he ever read the Old testament, as his god is not the one spoken of there. In fact that God doesn't exist in his ramblings.
Tell us JPC, where did he disappear to in your theology?

Yes I read the Old Testament, as I have read the entire Bible many times and I read completely at least 5 different versions of the Bible.

It is true that Jesus as "the word of God" (word of Yahweh) is all through the Old (or elder) Testament, but for the entire Bible the Father-God is only talked about or referred to but the Father is very much separate and left out of the Bible.

Jesus is the second in command (the Son) as the spokesperson (the word) of the Father-God, so we only see and hear from Jesus and not the Father.

That is the mistake most people make about Lucifer or Satan as he did not want to take God's place as the Father is absolute, but Satan wanted to take Jesus place as the second in command and that was the rebellion, Isaiah 14:12-18, and Matthew 4:1-11.

 

[PsyOps]

I certainly do believe what I posted, and I do believe what I quoted, and I do believe what I say.

Who the hell do you think your self are? to be telling me what I believe.

You do not give your own beliefs and yet you pretend to speak for my beliefs.

What a fraud.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

1) What does the word "believe" mean?

2) Do you believe in the God, as the Father of Jesus?

 

[foodcritic]

Parts of the Bible are fakes and parts allegories and parts are true and correct.

And if we go according to the Bible then Jesus Himself is the "holy word of God" and the Bible is not, per John 1:1 and 1:14 link HERE.

I see no problem at all in me using the Bible to make my points, as it is my business and I am the one using the Bible correctly.

"Marie" is preaching a wrong doctrine of a cruel and inhuman form of justice of burning people, while that is so extremely wrong and it is opposite of the true Gospel message.

Let's summarize the bold portion above. JP decides what he thinks is true/real in the bible. If it contradicts his idea it's a fable or allegory. If he thinks it's true he uses it to make another point.

Your statement above disqualifies you from any real consideration.

 

[VoteJP]

Mr Short-Bus.

1) What does the word "believe" mean?

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

verse 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." so to believe in Jesus does have many great benefits indeed, but if we look at that text then it says "shall not perish but have eternal life" which means we only die as in death and no-life, and there is no eternal life as in some "hell" since the eternal life only comes from believing. Of course on Judgment Day then everyone will believe and THEN receive that eternal life instead of death as in "shall not perish" and this too means that everyone does get saved on Judgment Day.

2) Do you believe in the God, as the Father of Jesus?

Yes indeed, but God is the Father and creator of us all - Creator and Father of all humanity and more.

 

[PsyOps]

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

verse 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." so to believe in Jesus does have many great benefits indeed, but if we look at that text then it says "shall not perish but have eternal life" which means we only die as in death and no-life, and there is no eternal life as in some "hell" since the eternal life only comes from believing. Of course on Judgment Day then everyone will believe and THEN receive that eternal life instead of death as in "shall not perish" and this too means that everyone does get saved on Judgment Day.



Yes indeed, but God is the Father and creator of us all - Creator and Father of all humanity and more.

Okay, you 've passed the test for being able to find at least 3 verses that contain the word "believe"; which wasn't what I asked.

I'll try again... What does that word (believe) mean? When it is translated from the Greek to English, what is the literal meaning of it?

 

[Marie]

Yes indeed, but God is the Father and creator of us all - Creator and Father of all humanity and more.

Hum thats not what my Bible says! You hung yourself with the Father.

<DIR>Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
<DIR>Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
<DIR>Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
<DIR>Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God (Plural) created the heavens and the earth.

Instead of using a verse to make a point how about validating scripture with scripture.
By the way there are two other verses but I forgot were they are located.
</DIR></DIR></DIR></DIR>