If you are pro life are you also.....

[Toxick]

So you're ok with the morning after pill, which might cause a fertilized egg to be killed?

Yup.

How is that any different from early term abortion?

Because I don't believe life begins at conception. Morning after doesn't kill a human being. It flushes an embryo.




Which could be used in stem-cell research.

 

[Cowgirl]

But it's not YOUR body that is frapped into an organ smoothie by an abortion.

Are you forgetting that the embryo is totally and completely dependant on the woman's body for survival? Why don't we just make it illegal for women to smoke, drink, and do drugs while pregnant then? In fact, she shouldn't be able to ride in a car, because she could get in an accident and lose the baby. Oh, and no walking, because she could get hit by a car and lose the baby.

 

[Toxick]

Okay, so once a woman becomes pregnant should she have to register with the state so that the outcome of the pregnancy can be tracked and any termination of the pregnancy not resulting in a live birth is investigated to assure no wrongdoing took place?

Yeah.

That's exactly what I said.



Do not put ####ing words in my mouth. I say exactly what I mean, and I think I'm rather adept at doing so. And thus far, I don't believe I've used the words "tracking", "registering" or "policing".

 

[Cowgirl]

Because I don't believe life begins at conception. Morning after doesn't kill a human being. It flushes an embryo.




Which could be used in stem-cell research.

How is an embryo pre-attachment any different than an embryo post-attachment? All of the sudden it's a human being if it's attached?

 

[Cowgirl]

Yeah.

That's exactly what I said.



Do not put ####ing words in my mouth. I say exactly what I mean, and I think I'm rather adept at doing so. And thus far, I don't believe I've used the words "tracking", "registering" or "policing".

What do you expect will happen if the fetus is given equal rights as the mother?

 

[Toxick]

Are you forgetting that the embryo is totally and completely dependant on the woman's body for survival?

I am not.

Why don't we just make it illegal for women to smoke, drink, and do drugs while pregnant then? In fact, she shouldn't be able to ride in a car, because she could get in an accident and lose the baby. Oh, and no walking, because she could get hit by a car and lose the baby.

I guess when logic and reason fail, taking things to absurd extremes and misrepresenting my arguments is the next best tactic.



I'm done here. I've said my peace.

 

[Toxick]

What do you expect will happen if the fetus is given equal rights as the mother?

Apparently expectant mothers will have to be bubble-wrapped and put into cold storage until such time as they can deliver?


Who cares? Make up something you'd think I'd say, and then argue with that. You apparently don't want to address the points I've actually made.

 

[Cowgirl]

Apparently expectant mothers will have to be bubble-wrapped and put into cold storage until such time as they can deliver?


Who cares? Make up something you'd think I'd say, and then argue with that. You apparently don't want to address the points I've actually made.

The only points you've made are personal opinions. I asked you a question, but you didn't answer. It's only a debate....one that has been discussed a billion times before, and one that will be discusssed a billion times in the future. :shrug:

 

[awpitt]

No one forces people to have kids or buy a house. Why should someone get extra because of the choices they made. And trust me I know kids are expensive. We have two of them. That is a choice we made.
Now do we take the tax deduction? Of course. But I just think it would be much easier (and probably cheaper) if there was a single flat/fair tax (again I cannot remember the difference). Let's say 20% and everyone paid 20% of their income for taxes.

All the major "flat" tax proposals include provisons that exempt certain amounts of income based on number of people in the household. Armey's, Forbes', and even the Fair Tax proposal includes this.

 

[Ken King]

Yeah.

That's exactly what I said.



Do not put ####ing words in my mouth. I say exactly what I mean, and I think I'm rather adept at doing so. And thus far, I don't believe I've used the words "tracking", "registering" or "policing".

Yeah and you have seemed to place your brain in neutral on this one as I posed my response as a question and didn't put any words in your mouth. Besides it seems that your mouth is already filled with something, you dillhole.

Here are a few more for you to smoke on (answers provided). You say that the unborn should have equal rights? Yes, it's here in balck and white. Do we investigate deaths of people in this country? Yes, we do. How would it be known to afford the right to the unborn if we didn't know the host was carrying them? You make them register or else how would anyone know.

 

[puggymom]

All the major "flat" tax proposals include provisons that exempt certain amounts of income based on number of people in the household. Armey's, Forbes', and even the Fair Tax proposal includes this.

The whole exemptions thing is just my opinion.

 

[Toxick]

The only points you've made are personal opinions.

Isn't that the point of the thread?

I asked you a question, but you didn't answer.

What - when does life begin? For the purposes of this discussion, does it really matter? Are you just curious to what I think, or are you just going to find fault with any answer I give you, and use it as leverage?


I believe life begins when the fetus has blood flowing through it. The appearance of the first blood cell is around 18ish days after conception.

There you go. Let's call it 2 1/2 weeks.

 

[Cowgirl]

Isn't that the point of the thread?

Well, once we both voice our opinions, there's really no point in debating, because it's not like we'll change each other's opinion.

What - when does life begin? For the purposes of this discussion, does it really matter? Are you just curious to what I think, or are you just going to find fault with any answer I give you, and use it as leverage?


I believe life begins when the fetus has blood flowing through it. The appearance of the first blood cell is around 18ish days after conception.

There you go. Let's call it 2 1/2 weeks.

Actually, the question I was most interested in is how do you think it will affect the mother's life if the fetus was given equal rights?

 

[Toxick]

Yeah and you have seemed to place your brain in neutral on this one as I posed my response as a question and didn't put any words in your mouth. Besides it seems that your mouth is already filled with something, you dillhole.

Wow.... Two whole posts, before you start ad hominem attacks. I figured you would have waited at least 4 posts.

Go #### yourself. I'm done with you, unless you have something useful to say.

 

[Toxick]

Actually, the question I was most interested in is how do you think it will affect the mother's life if the fetus was given equal rights?

In the same way that all mothers are affected - since their non-fetal children have equal rights.

 

[puggymom]

In the same way that all mothers are affected - since their non-fetal children have equal rights.

But other issues will arise. Like this one:
Fetal Versus Maternal Rights: Medical and Legal Perspectives -- BOWES and SELGESTAD 58 (2): 209 -- Obstetrics & Gynecology

This report deals with a patient's refusal to undergo cesarean section, which was recommended when fetal distress occurred in labor. Faced with this conflict of maternal and fetal rights, the physicians, administrators, and attorneys of the hospital requested a hearing and decision on the issue by the juvenile court. As a result cesarean section was performed as ordered by the court to safeguard the life of the unborn infant in spite of the objections of the mother. This case, in part, illustrates the need for the administrative capability to deal with such a situation even on an emergency basis, and a possible solution when this situation arises.

 

[Cowgirl]

In the same way that all mothers are affected - since their non-fetal children have equal rights.

No, it's not the same. Once the babies are born, they're no longer living inside her body.

 

[puggymom]

Here's another one and sad to say this already happened:
http://bioethics.georgetown.edu/publications/scopenotes/sn14.pdf

6. District of Columbia. Superior Court. Civil
Division. In re Madyun Fetus. (Docket No. 189-
86), 25 June 1986.
Ayesha and Mustafaa Madyun, both devout
Muslims, had planned on having a large family.
At 19 Mrs. Madyun found herself in D.C. General
Hospital with doctors urging a cesarean
section to deliver her child. Her water had broken
three days before, and the doctors feared
outside infection if the child was not delivered
soon. She was prepared to accept a poor outcome
with this, her first pregnancy rather than
face a possible limitation of the number of
future pregnancies caused by the necessity for
repeat cesarean sections. A judge summoned to
the hospital late in the evening ruled that while
the Madyun’s views were sincere, their rights
were outweighed by the rights of the fetus.

 

[Toxick]

But other issues will arise. Like this one:
Fetal Versus Maternal Rights: Medical and Legal Perspectives -- BOWES and SELGESTAD 58 (2): 209 -- Obstetrics & Gynecology

What do you want from me?

I already said that I think this kind of stuff should be dealt with as they arise, on a case-by-case basis.

The above case is hardly typical. It doesn't even come close to anything resembling something kinda like typical - and I don't believe laws need to address every single possible weird little freakish thing that might ever happen ever.

Jeez.

 

[Toxick]

No, it's not the same. Once the babies are born, they're no longer living inside her body.

From conception, children are dependant on their parents for survival.


When their in utero, they're completely dependant. When they're born they're still dependant on the parent to provide nourishment, warmth, and sanitation. Not to mention the financial burden that is carried out well past the point of physical independence and into adulthood.

Your kid will be latched onto you from the time it's made till the time it dies... or until you die. And the farther you go back in their life, the more complete the dependence.


Frankly, I don't think the level of dependence for survival is relevant.

If you left an infant outside to die - which it would, since it's utterly dependent on its parents for survival - you would be charged with murder.