I'm against ANY form of deportation for illegal al

wake_up

New Member
"and said he (Congressman Baca) was "against any form of deportation for illegal immigrants who have not committed a crime."

I also heard Democratic Congresswoman Lucille Roybal-Allard say the same thing on the radio Saturday.

Most Democrats feel this way but don't say it in public.

Secure Communities: Congressional delegation asks Brown to suspend California's participation in Secure Communities program - latimes.com

Help stop illegal immigration. YOU can make a difference. HERE'S HOW:
About Us | NumbersUSA - For Lower Immigration Levels

NumbersUSA is an immigration reduction organization whose intent is to reduce the United States' annual immigration to pre-1965 levels: NumbersUSA | For Lower Immigration Levels - For Lower Immigration Levels
 

ImnoMensa

New Member
"and said he (Congressman Baca) was "against any form of deportation for illegal immigrants who have not committed a crime."

I also heard Democratic Congresswoman Lucille Roybal-Allard say the same thing on the radio Saturday.

Most Democrats feel this way but don't say it in public.

Secure Communities: Congressional delegation asks Brown to suspend California's participation in Secure Communities program - latimes.com

Help stop illegal immigration. YOU can make a difference. HERE'S HOW:
About Us | NumbersUSA - For Lower Immigration Levels

NumbersUSA is an immigration reduction organization whose intent is to reduce the United States' annual immigration to pre-1965 levels: NumbersUSA | For Lower Immigration Levels - For Lower Immigration Levels
It's a funny thing. Years ago I went to Mexico while stationed at Fort Sam Houston. We just drove across the border and when we were finished we just drove back, no passport needed.

Now we are required to have a passport to enter and return, but these people want Mexicans to be allowed to come and go as they please.

Why have a Border at all? A toll Booth charging the upgraded rates that the Bay Bridge and the Harry Nice Bridge will soon start charging would make more sense.
 

pearlie369

UnStAbLe YeT sAfE
Can anyone please tell me why the United States is supposed to be the only country with open borders? Try being an illegal immigrant in Mexico, I hear it's brutal when you get caught. Check out their Amnesty International report. But yet, we are supposed to open our arms to people who have no respect for our laws from the moment they step foot over the line.
 

Toxick

Splat
"and said he (Congressman Baca) was "against any form of deportation for illegal immigrants who have not committed a crime.

I am also against deporting illegal immigrants who have not committed a crime.










Although I consider being here ILLEGALLY to be a crime... so...
 
I guess they need to lookup the definition of "illegal" as that indicates a crime.
In this context, the adjective illegal does not refer to a crime being committed. It refers to the non-national's (i.e. the immigrant or alien's) presence in the U.S. not being authorized. As such, illegal immigrants are generally subject to deportation (though even that isn't strictly true). However, it is quite possible to be an illegal immigrant in the U.S. and to never have committed an immigration-related crime.
 

dave1959

Active Member
In this context, the adjective illegal does not refer to a crime being committed. It refers to the non-national's (i.e. the immigrant or alien's) presence in the U.S. not being authorized. As such, illegal immigrants are generally subject to deportation (though even that isn't strictly true). However, it is quite possible to be an illegal immigrant in the U.S. and to never have committed an immigration-related crime.
This seems to be the part I have a hard time wrapping my head aound...

I am not being sarcastice when I ask you to please explain to me how you can be an illegal immigrant and not have commited a crime....

My postion is, If you are here illegaly (for whatever reason) you have commited a crime..
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Can anyone please tell me why the United States is supposed to be the only country with open borders?
Better check out Europe..

They've been this way for about 20 years.. in fact, we're about the only country in the world that doesn't have an open border with it's neighbors. Especially neighbors that could be considered friends or allies..
 
This seems to be the part I have a hard time wrapping my head aound...

I am not being sarcastice when I ask you to please explain to me how you can be an illegal immigrant and not have commited a crime....

My postion is, If you are here illegaly (for whatever reason) you have commited a crime..
I understand that many feel that being an 'illegal' should be a crime, but the reality is that it isn't. I also understand that people feel it should mean that a crime was at some point committed, even if the ongoing 'illegal' presence is not a crime, but the reality is that it doesn't.

The terms 'unlawful' and 'illegal' are not necessarily synonymous with 'criminal', though 'illegal' is often taken as synonymous with it. Something can be unlawful or illegal without being criminal (e.g. zoning laws may make certain things illegal, but violating those zoning laws may not be a crime; traffic laws may make certain things illegal, but many of those things may not be crimes). Noting that something is a crime is different than noting that something is illegal.

Aliens (i.e. people who are not U.S. nationals) can enter this nation legally, and then stay longer than they were authorized to stay or otherwise violate the terms of their authorized presence, and thus become unlawfully present. They are illegal immigrants, but they haven't necessarily committed a crime. They are, generally speaking, subject to deportation, but not criminal sanctions. Aliens can also come into the country as children (i.e. be brought by their parents or others) unlawfully, without committing a crime. You could be a 24 year old illegal immigrant that has lived here for 16 years - someone who is illegally present - but not have ever committed a crime. There are a lot of people in those kinds of situations - illegals who have committed no crimes.

Now, if people want that changed, then fine. They can ask their Congresspersons to remove the previously excluded element from 8 U.S.C. § 1326 violations. However, as U.S. law currently exists, merely being in the country illegally - i.e. as an alien without authorization - is not a crime. U.S. Code says what it says, the reality that some have mistakenly assumed that it says other things, or otherwise themselves consider something to be a crime, notwithstanding.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I understand that many feel that being an 'illegal' should be a crime, but the reality is that it isn't. I also understand that people feel it should mean that a crime was at some point committed, even if the ongoing 'illegal' presence is not a crime, but the reality is that it doesn't.

The terms 'unlawful' and 'illegal' are not necessarily synonymous with 'criminal', though 'illegal' is often taken as synonymous with it. Something can be unlawful or illegal without being criminal (e.g. zoning laws may make certain things illegal, but violating those zoning laws may not be a crime; traffic laws may make certain things illegal, but many of those things may not be crimes). Noting that something is a crime is different than noting that something is illegal.

Aliens (i.e. people who are not U.S. nationals) can enter this nation legally, and then stay longer than they were authorized to stay or otherwise violate the terms of their authorized presence, and thus become unlawfully present. They are illegal immigrants, but they haven't necessarily committed a crime. They are, generally speaking, subject to deportation, but not criminal sanctions. Aliens can also come into the country as children (i.e. be brought by their parents or others) unlawfully, without committing a crime. You could be a 24 year old illegal immigrant that has lived here for 16 years - someone who is illegally present - but not have ever committed a crime. There are a lot of people in those kinds of situations - illegals who have committed no crimes.

Now, if people want that changed, then fine. They can ask their Congresspersons to remove the previously excluded element from 8 U.S.C. § 1326 violations. However, as U.S. law currently exists, merely being in the country illegally - i.e. as an alien without authorization - is not a crime. U.S. Code says what it says, the reality that some have mistakenly assumed that it says other things, or otherwise themselves consider something to be a crime, notwithstanding.
It's not a crime to break the law? If doing something illegal is not a crime, what is it? What does the US Code say doing something illegal is?
 

philibusters

Active Member
Illegal means not legal -if you do something that is not legal it is considered a crime.
If you got a speeding ticket or parking ticket at some point in your life and somebody asked you if you had a criminal record, you'd probably say no as those are traffic offenses and parking offenses, not criminal things.

But in some sense you are correct, something being illegal colloquially means its a crime. But from a technical standpoint, the state legislature, or the U.S. Congress designates some statutes criminal statutes and does not give that designation to other statutes. For example a simple speeding ticket in Maryland for going 13 miles per hour over the speed limit would not violate a criminal statute, but would violate a traffic statute.

Likewise, Congress could easily pass a criminal statute saying being in the country improperly is a not allowed and thereafter anybody in the country illegally would be violating a criminal statute. But they have not. They passed an immigration law that is no more a criminal statute than a the traffic law I referenced earlier.
 

philibusters

Active Member
illegal zoning issues are considered a crime as well, as there are fines involved and sometimes jail.
That could be. A state can make a zoning law a criminal statute or they could choose not to make it a criminal statute. I'd assume most zoning laws are not criminal statutes, but certainly a state could make it a criminal statute. The 10th amendment reserves the power to the states to make those types of determinations.
 
It's not a crime to break the law? If doing something illegal is not a crime, what is it? What does the US Code say doing something illegal is?
Something being illegal does not necessarily mean that it is a crime, that is correct. The words are not strictly synonymous. There are all sorts of things that are illegal, but which aren't crimes. It would seem that a number of people have mistaken understandings with regard to the respective legal significance of those words.

Is it illegal to drive 10 mph faster than the posted speed limit? Usually, yes.
Is it a crime to drive 10 mph faster than the posted speed limit? Usually, no. It's usually regarded as a civil infraction or something along that line.

The reality is that being present in the U.S. illegally (i.e. what is referred to by, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1227 (a)(1)(B)) is a civil violation, not a criminal one. Deportation proceedings are civil, not criminal. A large number of those illegally present in the U.S. are as such because they overstayed their visas or otherwise violated the conditions of their authorized admittance. Their being here is illegal. It is in violation of U.S. law. However, they have not necessarily committed a crime (I say necessarily because some of them surely have committed some crime - immigration related (e.g. marriage fraud) or otherwise (e.g. shoplifting)). They are potentially subject to deportation, but they aren't subject to criminal sanctions (unless, of course, they actually have committed some crime).

The phrase 'illegal immigrants that have committed a crime' is not redundant and it does not reveal that the speaker doesn't know the meaning of the word illegal. Rather, it gives some slight indication that they actually might know the meaning of the word.
 
Illegal means not legal -if you do something that is not legal it is considered a crime.
Yes, illegal means not legal. It means in violation of the law. However, not legal or in violation of the law does not mean criminal. Many things that are illegal are also criminal, but many things that are illegal aren't. Illegal presence in the U.S. is not, in and of itself, a crime. It can be under certain circumstances, but otherwise it is just a civil violation.

You can consider it a crime if you wish, but our legal system does not. And someone who suggests that many illegal immigrants haven't committed a crime by being here illegally, does not do so in error.
 
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This_person

Well-Known Member
Something being illegal does not necessarily mean that it is a crime, that is correct. The words are not strictly synonymous. There are all sorts of things that are illegal, but which aren't crimes. It would seem that a number of people have mistaken understandings with regard to the respective legal significance of those words.

Is it illegal to drive 10 mph faster than the posted speed limit? Usually, yes.
Is it a crime to drive 10 mph faster than the posted speed limit? Usually, no. It's usually regarded as a civil infraction or something along that line.

The reality is that being present in the U.S. illegally (i.e. what is referred to by, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1227 (a)(1)(B)) is a civil violation, not a criminal one. Deportation proceedings are civil, not criminal. A large number of those illegally present in the U.S. are as such because they overstayed their visas or otherwise violated the conditions of their authorized admittance. Their being here is illegal. It is in violation of U.S. law. However, they have not necessarily committed a crime (I say necessarily because some of them surely have committed some crime - immigration related (e.g. marriage fraud) or otherwise (e.g. shoplifting)). They are potentially subject to deportation, but they aren't subject to criminal sanctions (unless, of course, they actually have committed some crime).

The phrase 'illegal immigrants that have committed a crime' is not redundant and it does not reveal that the speaker doesn't know the meaning of the word illegal. Rather, it gives some slight indication that they actually might know the meaning of the word.
Hair properly split, it's a distinction without a difference.

Virtually all reasonable people consider performing an illegal act a crime. The minutia of the term notwithstanding.
 
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