Impossible to win for Obama...

[Bruzilla]

...is a world of difference between the IRS and the MVA. There is a handful of ways to take care of business at the MVA and it is not used as a political trough for ones supporters.

No two preparers, including the IRS, will do a fairly typical return the same way. Even a Senator, any of them, can go get his or her tags renewed. Not one of them can do their own tax return. Neither can most Americans.

Of course there's a world of difference between the IRS and MVA, but that's not the issue. The issue is all the similarities between the idiots who complain about these agencies and other government agencies, laws, regulations, spending, etc. It's easy to get these folks to whine and gripe about how much all this costs, or how hard it is, or how ineffective they are, and pols like Paul are quick to find these people using the "You Don't Like X? We'll Do Away With It!" speeches that get these folks saying "Damn! That guy thinks just like I do! I'm voting for him!". And neither the Pol or the pinhead bothers to think about what the actual consequences of taking that action would be as they just can't see that far beyond their narrow views.

 

[Larry Gude]

The issue...

Of course there's a world of difference between the IRS and MVA, but that's not the issue. The issue is all the similarities between the idiots who complain about these agencies and other government agencies, laws, regulations, spending, etc. It's easy to get these folks to whine and gripe about how much all this costs, or how hard it is, or how ineffective they are, and pols like Paul are quick to find these people using the "You Don't Like X? We'll Do Away With It!" speeches that get these folks saying "Damn! That guy thinks just like I do! I'm voting for him!". And neither the Pol or the pinhead bothers to think about what the actual consequences of taking that action would be as they just can't see that far beyond their narrow views.

...as you stated, it is we're all pin heads because we see the wisdom in being cautious about foreign intervention even when it's our own party in power.

The issue, as you stated, is we're all pin heads for thinking the free market is a better idea than ethanol subsidies.

The issue, as you stated, is we're all pin heads for thinking the IRS, an extra constitutional entity, should not be.

The issue, as you stated, is that we're all pin heads for thinking the fed has proven to be more a tool of politicians than a better idea than the gold standard.

The issue, as you stated, is that we're all pin heads for thinking that the solution to our medical costs is NOT inside the beltway.

Or, in my pointy headed pin headedness, did I miss your point?

 

[SamSpade]

Of course there's a world of difference between the IRS and MVA, but that's not the issue.

Actually I thought your point was good, and your examples were good, but the IRS and MVA metaphors failed.

For one thing - I had no idea that the MVA did any of that stuff online.
For another - the MVA down here is exceptional. The example I give is that I once went in to renew my tags, and Gary Wright's "Dreamweaver" was starting as I went in the door. It was just finishing as I went OUT the door. THAT is how fast it went, and there were people in front of me. I've never been in and out of a BANK that fast.

I've been in MVA centers in parts of this country that would make your hair curl - lines around the block or out the door. And this was before they opened in the morning.

As far as the IRS - I did one season as a tax preparer. People often wait till the last minute because they procrastinate, but it's also because they OWE, and don't have the money. It's also, like in my case - their employer STILL hadn't furnished their W-2, even though they're legally required to do it months earlier. (That year, I got mine ON April 15!). However, GENERALLY, the IRS does their job well. And in some cases, it has to do with forms filed quarterly - they don't get them until the beginning of April.

I do agree that politicians make their bread and butter on promising simple-minded solutions to complex problems that sound good in the very short term, like eating the seed corn when you're hungry.

 

[Bruzilla]

...as you stated, it is we're all pin heads because we see the wisdom in being cautious about foreign intervention even when it's our own party in power.

The issue, as you stated, is we're all pin heads for thinking the free market is a better idea than ethanol subsidies.

The issue, as you stated, is we're all pin heads for thinking the IRS, an extra constitutional entity, should not be.

The issue, as you stated, is that we're all pin heads for thinking the fed has proven to be more a tool of politicians than a better idea than the gold standard.

The issue, as you stated, is that we're all pin heads for thinking that the solution to our medical costs is NOT inside the beltway.

Or, in my pointy headed pin headedness, did I miss your point?

No... you just missed my point, but there's nothing new there. What I am saying is that folks who respond the strongest to Paul are the folks who use single-track thinking. Going back to drugs, they see people using drugs, they see ineffective laws that can't be completely enforced, and they see millions being spent incarcerating drug criminals, and their solution to this is to just legalize drugs. Yes, that solution does solve those problems, but they also create a whole new set of even worse problems. Most folks are sensible enough to realize that, but there's always that ten percent or so who don't. These are the same folks who mess up at the MVA, or with their taxes, and most other things that require some forethought.

There are lots of issues with the IRS, the free market, and all the other issues you mentioned, but wise people know that the way to solve these problems is to work through them and find ways to correct the problems without creating a new host of them. The solution to saving foreign aid dollars is to be smart about how we use them and maximize ROI, not stop paying foreign aid. The solution to the Middle East is to sit on those guys until they behave (just as we did in Europe and Japan) and not just run off and let whatever happens happen. McCain, Clinton, and Obama are at least wise enough to know that, but listening to Paul... he just doesn't get it.

 

[Larry Gude]

And you missed...

No... you just missed my point, but there's nothing new there. What I am saying is that folks who respond the strongest to Paul are the folks who use single-track thinking.

...mine. Single track thinking? Change? Hope? Does that qualify, some how, as dual track thinking? Lesser of two evils? Is that a well thought out, issue driven rationale?

 

[Bruzilla]

...mine. Single track thinking? Change? Hope? Does that qualify, some how, as dual track thinking? Lesser of two evils? Is that a well thought out, issue driven rationale?

You're trying to force comparisons and it won't work. When Obama is calling for change and hope, he's talking about changing how things are done and hoping to get it done, which is what McCain and Clinton mean when they start talking change on the trail. But there is a HUGE difference between how any of these three discuss how they would change things and how Paul and his loons discuss it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Or...

There are lots of issues with , but listening to Paul... he just doesn't get it.

...perish the thought, maybe you don't get it?

We messed with Iran in the 1950's and beget the Shah, a freaking monarch and betrayed the pro western sentiments of most Iranians by overthrowing a proper and fair election. Carter, bless his black heart, somehow made a bad situation worse and took us from a monarchy to the tyranny of religious fanaticism over there. How thoughtful of us. How wise. Now, we've given them the money to build the bomb, something we're are, allegedly, against.

The fact of the matter is foreign interventionism, nation building, comes replete with all sorts of unintended consequences. If regional volatility threatened the region then the region could sort it out. As it is, we decide it is for us to sort out and we have our modern day quagmire.

In the process we've proven ourselves no friends of democracy unless it suits us and no friends of freedom unless we get to define it and, somehow, the ungrateful bastards don't trust us.

Now, perhaps the religious fundamentalism to which we gave rise to power will, if we just keep plugging along, somehow come to like us and be good trading partners. Or, perhaps, we'll continue to have the instability and turmoil and expense, both human and otherwise because, basically, we keep making a bad situation worse because to mind our own business would, somehow, be 'unwise' and too narrow minded.

 

[Larry Gude]

Look...

You're trying to force comparisons and it won't work. When Obama is calling for change and hope, he's talking about changing how things are done and hoping to get it done, which is what McCain and Clinton mean when they start talking change on the trail. But there is a HUGE difference between how any of these three discuss how they would change things and how Paul and his loons discuss it.

...you've proven yourself a closed mind when it comes to Obama, so, this is more entertainment value than trying to see if you see anything BUT your view. Obama is, most likely, going to choose socialist solutions. This is not loony? That's what he's talked about. Hillary, not much better. No loons there? McCain will trot out what ever his constituents, the media, will bite on. By definition, loons galore.

Yet the simple concept of minding our own business and looking to the constitution is...loony?

 

[Bruzilla]

Actually I thought your point was good, and your examples were good, but the IRS and MVA metaphors failed.

For one thing - I had no idea that the MVA did any of that stuff online.
For another - the MVA down here is exceptional. The example I give is that I once went in to renew my tags, and Gary Wright's "Dreamweaver" was starting as I went in the door. It was just finishing as I went OUT the door. THAT is how fast it went, and there were people in front of me. I've never been in and out of a BANK that fast.

I've been in MVA centers in parts of this country that would make your hair curl - lines around the block or out the door. And this was before they opened in the morning.

As far as the IRS - I did one season as a tax preparer. People often wait till the last minute because they procrastinate, but it's also because they OWE, and don't have the money. It's also, like in my case - their employer STILL hadn't furnished their W-2, even though they're legally required to do it months earlier. (That year, I got mine ON April 15!). However, GENERALLY, the IRS does their job well. And in some cases, it has to do with forms filed quarterly - they don't get them until the beginning of April.

I do agree that politicians make their bread and butter on promising simple-minded solutions to complex problems that sound good in the very short term, like eating the seed corn when you're hungry.

The Paul approach is the same as the loons like Tom Hayden and other Dems when they were pushing for the closure of military bases en masse so that all that saved money could be used for social spending. The Libs loved the idea, but they couldn't see that every base that closed was going to put more and more people out of work an on the public dole. All that saved money was going to get spent on supporting more entitlement folks, more cops to deal with more criminals, etc. The BRAC wasn't the perfect solution, but it offered a more measured and beneficial solution that just shutting down bases the way Hayden and other Democrats wanted.

But my core point is not the MVA or the IRS. It's how politicans like Paul can gain support by proposing simple solutions to complex problems, that will result in even more problems, and there's about ten percent of the population who will hear someone echoing those sentiments and support them. Legalize drugs, nuke Iran, end welfare, ban guns, raise taxes, make medical treatment free, leave Iraq, eliminate the IRS, eliminate taxes... different parties, different candidates, but the same results. Politicians who pitch easy fixes are the last people we need as president, and that's all Paul has to offer.

 

[Bruzilla]

...you've proven yourself a closed mind when it comes to Obama, so, this is more entertainment value than trying to see if you see anything BUT your view. Obama is, most likely, going to choose socialist solutions. This is not loony? That's what he's talked about. Hillary, not much better. No loons there? McCain will trot out what ever his constituents, the media, will bite on. By definition, loons galore.

Yet the simple concept of minding our own business and looking to the constitution is...loony?

No, you're the one with the closed mind. I have always held that I will believe anything that anyone wants to say about any candidate, including Obama, provided they can show what they are saying is the truth and not just crap from the media echo chamber.

Is Obama choosing leftist/Socialist solutions loony? In my mind yes, but in the minds of millions of Democrats the answer is no. I have my view and they have theirs, so who's opinion is right? I have a gun rack full of military rifles, my neighbor has a case full of hunting rifles. So are hunting rifles better than military rifles? In his eyes they are and in mine they aren't. So which of us is right? Depends on your opinion.

But to the Obama/McCain/Clinton issue, none of them is proposing the wholesale eleimation of the government, disengagement from all foreign bases, legalization of drugs, or most of the other loony ideas that Paul has proposed.

And I hate to break your core belief structure, but as I have already said... now that Barr is the Libertarian candidate I am no longer voting for Obama but will be casting my vote for Barr. So you're about four days out of date on your "Bru's just an Obama supporter" BS.