Incompetant Land Search

[Stirituprebel]

Anyone catch the Friday Emptyprise on School Site Land Aquisition? No new schools till 2009. What have these people been doing. Cathy Allen says not to panic. Well there are no classroom trailers coming for relief anytime soon, Thanks to hurricane Katrina ,Fema confiscated all available trailers to be shipped south. The land search has been going on forever. The two people responsible(Howe and Clements) have come up with nothing. These two folks have no experience other than their whole careers in the public sector. No business sense, no real estate experience. They are the same two that are responsible for enrollment projections. These projections have been horrible and are inaccurate and were done by uneducated and incompetant people. Anyone living in St. Mary's county over the past 10 years knows that we would need more schools. The need for new schools did not occur to this Brain Trust until two years ago, when they woke up and the kids were here already. That's when you see the great change in the capital requests from their office. To get back on the topic, the process for site selection has no procedure in place by the BOE. There is no selection committee, and no direction, just two people that do not have a clue about market value, escalation of realestate values or land aquisition. These two folks could be in cohoots with developers for all we know. They have been blowing smoke up the hind parts of county commissioners, BOE and taxpayers for two years with excuses and false leads. Dr. Martirano should get ahold of these two and kick them out the door, and then hire someone with some practical experience to direct the effort. These two have pissed away several hundred thousand taxpayers dollars on studies and engineering reports and despite the advice of their consultants have continued to pursue dead ends. This whole process and the two folks mentioned should be investigated before we waste more time and money. Before this is over, our children will be redistricted and possibly the schools may be run in shifts with some children attending school morning to afternoon and others from afternoon to evening. I am sure this last idea would go over swell with my fellow St. Mary's Countians. I urge you to contact the BOE and your county commissioners and prod them to look into the situation. It appears that Mattingly and Raley are aware but are unwilling to do anything about it. The other three commissioners are developer happy and are probably playing the county zoning board against the BOE for theirs and the developers gain.

 

[Ken King]

Nice first post, way to jump right in.

What happened to the land deal off of Indian Bridge Road?

 

[Stirituprebel]

That land deal went south quick. McKay called the Gov when DNR first refused to give it up. The Gov made Tommy Franks the DNR head guy give up the property to the county on the condition that it exchange the indian bridge land for other adjacent county land. This pissed DNR off royally. Turns out the county did not have any land worth a crap nearby so the deal fell through. McKay never mentions it because he looks like an idiot in the whole thing. DNR hated the farmer farming the Indian Bridge piece so during the course of all of these shenanigans they took the opportunity to kick the farmer off and is slowly allowing the land to turn into wood lands like the rest of the land that DNR owns around there. So much for preserving our farm lands. By the way, the school system spent thousands of dollars on this site doing perc tests, surveys, title searches and even I think some site design. All for nothing. DNR wins, We lose.

 

[Vince]

Maybe they should start spending some of this money on improving the schools we have? Take Patuxent High School, Calvert County. The dayum thing was too small from the time they built it. They wasted money on building the high atrium type entrance area because somebody wanted it. They have the property, but won't put money into new classrooms. Instead, the trailers were shipped in. The county then put money into new middle and elementary schools, but "duh" where do the kids go after that? Ship them to Calvert High School or the new one in Huntington. The people that make these decisions just don't think. I guess I'm glad this is the last year for my last child in the school system.

 

[Stirituprebel]

Your right these great decision makers never think outside of the box and they operate in a vacuum. As far as big two story entrance attriums go, you should see the waste of money at the St. Mary's Tech Center. That entrance cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Word has it Dr. Richardson, the old superintendent picked it out of a magazine she had and had it duplicated in all it's glory at the tech center. What a waste of money, that could have been spent on the students. Her ego cost us big time.

 

[tlatchaw]

Stirituprebel: I support you position entirely and wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of justice with the board of education in St. Mary's county.

BUT

The irony of misspelling the word "incompetent" in a thread that complains about education is too much for me to pass up.

(no hard feelings, I know you probably just missed it because you're passionate about your argument here)

 

[Stirituprebel]

"I meant to do that" Famous words of Pee Wee Herman

 

[vraiblonde]

"I meant to do that" Famous words of Pee Wee Herman

You're a good sport - welcome to the forums.

 

[BernieP]

Welcome to the legacy of Patricia Richardson, promoter of the inept. The BOE is a joke, it has no real power. It hires someone to run the system and eventually the system runs it. The BOE relies on the scholl system staff for all their information and the county commisioners for the funding. For all intents and purposes the administrative staff formulates the budget and the commisioners approve it. The BOE is a wasted step. The fact is this county has not wanted to build a new school. If they did they would have started the process 10 years ago. No, it was not the politcally advantagious to build a new school but to "renovate" schools. There are a number of problems with simply renovating/expanding existing schools. First among them is that the basic design elements of the school cannot accommodate the additional students. The halls are not wide enough, there is not sufficient land for athletic fields and parking. Water and sewage systems are over extended. Next they are sending more students , which means more buses, to schools that may already be impacted by increased traffic on the roads.

 

[RoseRed]

I enjoy reading all the posts on the subject, but have one request. Please use paragraphs, it makes them easier to read.

TIA and carry on...

 

[Vince]

No, it was not the politcally advantagious to build a new school but to "renovate" schools. There are a number of problems with simply renovating/expanding existing schools. First among them is that the basic design elements of the school cannot accommodate the additional students. The halls are not wide enough, there is not sufficient land for athletic fields and parking. Water and sewage systems are over extended. Next they are sending more students , which means more buses, to schools that may already be impacted by increased traffic on the roads.

You've said a mouthful. The schools should have been made big enough to begin with. Patuxent High is a perfect example. A stop gap measure. And they knew when they built it that it wasn't big enough. The traffic problem now?? Well come over and look at the mess in front of the High School. It's a joke, and they've been working on it over a year. They started on the road going to the High School last summer and it's still in work. Maryland highway workers definitely have job security.

 

[Oz]

You're a good sport - welcome to the forums.

Another newbie posting polls... Wonder who's political campaign literature this "scientific poll" will appear on?

This is actually a more complicated matter than you can read in the newspaper. You can probably pick up a little more information from attending the meetings. But unless you're an insider who has contact with both the county commissioners, and the Board of Education, you cannot possibly take an educated position on this subject.

The good news is that the BoE has done something right, and that is hiring Dr. Martirano. This guy came to town to do business, in spite of his lame "work hard and be nice" slogan. He brings experience from other school systems, unlike his home-grown predecessor. One of his major priorities is to get land for new schools. We'll find out how politically astute he is in that process.

 

[5857dave]

I've said it before & I'll say it again....

St. May's County has the available land right under their nose.....Myrtle Point! They won't do anything to make this into a viable recreational park. Instead it sits there for the past 8 years devoid of anything other than an outhouse and a couple of roped off parking areas. For those not familiar with the property, it is the county "park" located at the end of Patuxent Blvd. in California. Didn't know it was there? Little wonder, especially since the powers in this county refuse to have a sign erected on Route 4 directing people to the park. Wanna' know why? Ask the tree hugging, flower sniffing, bird-watching groups in this area. Folks, this is 192 acres of waterfront property, owned by the county, yet sitting virtually dormant. Ask the county how many visitors they registered last year to this "park"; they should know since they had the traffic cable there. Betcha' it amounts to less than 5000!

As for Cathy Allen's remarks in the paper, does she think she speaks for all the BOE members? Why haven't we heard anything from them? Are they too afraid the "lil' dictator" will lop off their heads? Why haven't we heard much from Larry Jarboe about the school situation? Hell, we haven't heard a word from Dement. They need to either have the testicular fortitude to speak up or get the heck outta' Dodge! Of course, this is just my opinion.............

 

[Stirituprebel]

Your right if you weren't an insider or former insider you would not know all the background on the subject. I can tell you this much, the following are the proposed sites. Buchanan Property, Only one possible entrance on rt. 4 next to property owned by Catholic Archdiocese. Good luck aquiring this for a turn in lane. Also, the property has up two 14 heirs to make a decision to sell to the BOE. The property has only two percable areas on it, both up front putting the building in a hole in the back. The wildwood site currently available is surrounded with non tidal wetlands, does not perc and has no public water or sewer on it. The Clark Property in Leonardtown, is located in a low area that will require 15' of fill to build on and is plagued with underground springs. The fact that the state highway and the town of leonardtown has no transportation plan(except one traffic light) for the school, and the 3600 homes coming to the three surrounding subdivisions is a big concern. There's also St. Mary's crossing(near rt.4 and Indian Bridge) that has the potential to put three schools on it, The owners want $10,000,000 for this and can get water and sewer there. The county commissioners poo poo this site because of the price and who the developer players were. These are the main four sites described. As far as Dr. Martirano goes, you are right, he is just what the school system needed. Some one straight forward and up front with folks, no apparent hidden agendas yet. The school sites are tops on his agenda because it is the most prominent problem he inherited. Dr. Richardson relied on too many back room deals to get what she needed(land included). Dr. Fulton did nothing between the reign of Richardson and Martirano, mainly because she has no clue and should have been regulated to teaching Art like she did at the beginning of her career.

 

[Oz]

Why would you need a perc for a school site?

Stiritup- What about all the other prospective sites? So far, you've only listed the ones that have appeared in the newspaper.

Dr. Richardson was a competent Super for the most part. It was simply time for new blood.

Dr Fulton's job wasn't to change the system. She simply had to hold down the fort while the BoE found Dr. R's replacement. Mission accomplished with minor damage.

 

[Stirituprebel]

Why would you need a perc for a school site?

Stiritup- What about all the other prospective sites? So far, you've only listed the ones that have appeared in the newspaper.

Dr. Richardson was a competent Super for the most part. It was simply time for new blood.

Dr Fulton's job wasn't to change the system. She simply had to hold down the fort while the BoE found Dr. R's replacement. Mission accomplished with minor damage.

Response: You need a septic field if you do not have public sewer, which that is currently the case with the Wildwood site. Thats why you need to perc.

Here is a list of other sites looked at but is not all inclusive.

Pool Site next to Great Mills High- Not large enough, liquor store in its front yard.
Site on rear of Leonardtown High School- Plenty of area, infrastructure already there. Afraid to lose future ball field space to school, although field expansion does not appear in current CIP. Commissioner Mattingly suggested this site in public session. BOE did not like being told by Commissioner where to put a school(This is Fact!)so this site was never fully researched.
Myrtle Point- Penisula Property surrounded with Critical Area Setbacks. This could have been pursued more with variances obtained, but they are afraid of the tree huggers.
Alfred Mattingly Property- South of Leonardtown before Rt. 4- Property would work, Town of Leonardtown said they would not give up sewer allocation to their sewage plant for a school there."Did n't mind doing this for the Clark Property though."
Property next to Spring Ridge Middle- 30 acres to far away from need. They can't fill the seats for this middle school because some don't want to go there. How are they going to fill elementary there. Plus if they did they would have to bus to equalize the races. This is bad p.r.. Poo Pooed out of the gate.
Property next to Hollywood- Originally bought for elementary and Middle. Why another elementary school would not fit there is beyond me.
One school employee sent a letter to sixty property owners along route. 4. Little response. No one followed up with a door to door campaign or even a phone call. THey lost valuable time proceeding in this fashion.They should have solicited a third party to do this solicitation. Now a lot of the problem is the county(Canavan) wants to squeeze the developers for school sites and other public properties by trading land for increased development rites. The commissioners want their own special deals and the BOE is not strong enough to push the issue. In conclusion, the issue is going no where, and the BOE staff are proposing sites that don't work to buy time and make it look like things are moving forward when they are no closer than they were two years ago. For another time, I have alot of information on the Dr. Pat/Fulton regiem that may change your opinion of them.

 

[Oz]

Response: You need a septic field if you do not have public sewer, which that is currently the case with the Wildwood site. Thats why you need to perc.

Here is a list of other sites looked at but is not all inclusive.

Well, the Zoning Ordinance won't allow a school to be built without public water and sewer. That zoning document went into effect in 2002. So a perc doesn't really matter. A school cannot be a conditional use either, so again, it doesn't matter. Forget the percs - not an issue. MetComm will have to get service to whatever parcel becomes our next school.

You are way off on the school sites. There are more than what you have mentioned. Plus, the BoE contacted hundreds of large property owners to inquire about the availability of specific large parcels of land. I'm not trying to defend the BoE, because I think they should have handled this situation long ago. But spreading partial information from news clips isn't helping anyone either.

I think you would be better served by questioning the current "requirements" for school sites. We don't need a 100 acre high school site when the largest one in the county is under 60 acres. We don't need a 50 acre middle school site when the largest one currently is under 30 acres. Why can't we have a 2 story elementary school? There are a heck of a lot of 2 story homes that these children live in, and they navigate those steps just fine every day. If you reduce the property requirements, you open up many more options for potential sites. Change the zoning ordinance too. Chopticon is a fine school, and it's located in the RPD -- along with many of our elementary and middle schools. B!tching about these few properties when you don't have more information than newsbytes isn't going create one new classroom.

 

[Stirituprebel]

Well, the Zoning Ordinance won't allow a school to be built without public water and sewer. That zoning document went into effect in 2002. So a perc doesn't really matter. A school cannot be a conditional use either, so again, it doesn't matter. Forget the percs - not an issue. MetComm will have to get service to whatever parcel becomes our next school.

You are way off on the school sites. There are more than what you have mentioned. Plus, the BoE contacted hundreds of large property owners to inquire about the availability of specific large parcels of land. I'm not trying to defend the BoE, because I think they should have handled this situation long ago. But spreading partial information from news clips isn't helping anyone either.

I think you would be better served by questioning the current "requirements" for school sites. We don't need a 100 acre high school site when the largest one in the county is under 60 acres. We don't need a 50 acre middle school site when the largest one currently is under 30 acres. Why can't we have a 2 story elementary school? There are a heck of a lot of 2 story homes that these children live in, and they navigate those steps just fine every day. If you reduce the property requirements, you open up many more options for potential sites. Change the zoning ordinance too. Chopticon is a fine school, and it's located in the RPD -- along with many of our elementary and middle schools. B!tching about these few properties when you don't have more information than newsbytes isn't going create one new classroom.

Reply: As I said in my posting my list was not all inclusive. As far as two story schools are concerned, they are fine and are prominent in city settings. Charles County schools already have a two story elementary. The issue here is the capacity of the schools. The BOE feels that a larger school(714 students I think vs. 535 like at Hollywood) is manageable. They had a committee to study this. This would reduce the number of sites they need. Unfortunately, there is a lot of research on the web recommending smaller schools and little or none recommending larger schools. It should be noted that the study committee consisted of over 20 people all school administrators with the only parent/community representative being the county pta president. As far as zoning ordinances are concerned, the rule may have changed in 2002, but I am confident that the BOE could approach the Board of Appeals for a variance as they have done on every expansion project that they have had in the RPD. As far as property size is concerned, you are right, they don't need that much land for an elementary or Middle, Town Creek(Capacity 250-300 kids) is on about 8 acres as is Mechanicsville. Lexington Park(Capacity 546) is on about 14 acres. Middles are on various size lots with Esperanza the smallest and Margaret Brent being the largest due to the recently installed septic system and associated land for it. High Schools have larger requirements due to sports. As new programs such as Freshmen football, Lacrosse over the last few years etc. are brought on, the schools are unwilling to share fields and the booster clubs help in driving the need for new fields. In conclusion, the damage has been done, my complaint that there is no real public participation in the site selection process and that free(public land) has not been relooked at.

 

[5857dave]

Try to get the county to name the other perspective sites. They have repeatedly refused to do so saying that land acquisition does not fall under the open-meetings act. Go ahead, see if they will give you the names.

Why would you need a perc for a school site?

Stiritup- What about all the other prospective sites? So far, you've only listed the ones that have appeared in the newspaper.

Dr. Richardson was a competent Super for the most part. It was simply time for new blood.

Dr Fulton's job wasn't to change the system. She simply had to hold down the fort while the BoE found Dr. R's replacement. Mission accomplished with minor damage.

 

[Stirituprebel]

Try to get the county to name the other perspective sites. They have repeatedly refused to do so saying that land acquisition does not fall under the open-meetings act. Go ahead, see if they will give you the names.

I am not sure that they have any others in negotiation. There was once talk about the Broyhill property behind Dorsey park and another large piece over on St. John's road. If they are negotiating with someone, they need to look like that they have other options or they will get gigged. The fact that they are not divulging other properties makes me think they are bluffing. Anyway, these sites originate with two staff administrators doing the search and negotiation, and then they disclose to the BOE in closed session their results, make recommendations and then the BOE decides action. The BOE action is only as good as the info provided them. This should have been done publicly like the procurement of other school equipment and services or at least they should have solicited real estate consultants as they do with Architects, Engineers and other professional services to seek out this property. The criteria for a site should have been developed in committee with parents, administrators and business professionals in attendence. The criteria was set up by two staff members with really no other input. The BOE should have a procedure in place for land aquisition, like they do for everything else.