Iraq: What would the world think?

What would the world think of us if we pulled out of Iraq, right now?

  • You can't count on US: We'll leave if the going gets tough

    Votes: 17 65.4%
  • International Ethics: At least someone in America did the right thing

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't know, don't care. I just care about what's best, right now.

    Votes: 9 34.6%

  • Total voters
    26

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
So I got stoned and got to thinking,

What would the world think of us if we pulled out of Iraq?

Poll attached.
 
Last edited:

PsyOps

Pixelated
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
So I got stoned and got to thinking,

What would the world think of us if we pulled out of Iraq?

Poll attached.
You got stoned and came up with this poll? :rolleyes:
 
E

(((echo)))

Guest
whatever lowers the gas prices i'm all for it :yay:
but in all actuality we were screwed when skidmark declared war on terrorisim. Did his silly @ss not realize that we would be at war indefinately!?
 

Coventry17

New Member
We already proved that we pull out when the going gets tough in Viet Nam, Haiti and Somalia. Our international reputation is already in the crapper, I doubt there's much more we could do as a nation to make it worse.
 

sgt_turmoil

New Member
iraq

the world actually hates us for being there anyway. The coalition is made up of countries like Iceland and Peru who dont even have a considerable military presence. Even Tony Blair has backed down. I dont think anyone would care if we left. What is the point of being there Mr Bush. Insurgent wasn't even a word until you came into office. Clinton actually asked Congress for a definition of "sexual relations before he would even answer their question." No one still knows about your WMD's explain to me this. Insurgent, WMD, and who exactly is in this coalition that has troops on the ground.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
sgt_turmoil said:
the world actually hates us for being there anyway. The coalition is made up of countries like Iceland and Peru who dont even have a considerable military presence. Even Tony Blair has backed down. I dont think anyone would care if we left. What is the point of being there Mr Bush. Insurgent wasn't even a word until you came into office. Clinton actually asked Congress for a definition of "sexual relations before he would even answer their question." No one still knows about your WMD's explain to me this. Insurgent, WMD, and who exactly is in this coalition that has troops on the ground.

You and Andy both need to give up the stoned posting. Read that one once you come down and see if it makes sense. :cool:
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Coventry17 said:
We already proved that we pull out when the going gets tough in Viet Nam, Haiti and Somalia. Our international reputation is already in the crapper, I doubt there's much more we could do as a nation to make it worse.
Very interesting statement from someone on the "run away" side of the fence...
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
I've generally lived by the saying "no good deed goes unpunished". You'll never make everyone happy even when you actually do the right thing.

And even heads of state make this general mistake that nations are like persons - they like you, they don't like you, they are your friends and so on. Nations cannot be anthropomorphized as though they were human. Nations are like animals, or corporations, or germs - they are motivated by enlightened self-interest. We do not have "friends" - we have allies. Some of our most devoted allies still act against us or appear to "betray" us. Nations do not exhibit loyalty or friendship or compassion. They maintain the appearance of such because it is in their best interests to do so for the present. *People* have these characteristics - and in some instances, government administrations may be motivated by such. But nations as a whole function in a fundamentally more selfish, self-motivated fashion.

Because of this, you'll never ever have the world's "respect" for doing the right thing. You can't. Because nations COMPETE. Invariably, doing the "right" thing makes it worse for some other nation's enlightened self-interest. I can barely recall a time when the United States undertook some bold move without getting heat from around the world, including our "friends".

So, when someone asks if some action done by the United States will improve or lessen our level of respect in the world, my sentiment is I don't give a crap because whether you think it can't sink any lower, or that we really do command a significant level of respect, or that since we're right we should ignore it - the bottom line really is that it doesn't matter, because "respect" among nations is an illusion. You NEVER have the world's respect, and no world power ever has had it. Whoever is on top is ALWAYS hated by those under them - by competitors, and by those permanently low on the ladder.

I worry - just a little - that pulling out will cause those who FEAR us - fear us a little *less*.

I do know that historically - free nations can't tolerate long wars, and oppressive regimes get war-weary eventually. We won our Revolution for a lot of reasons, but one of them was because the English people were just tired of it. The Russians left Afghanistan after a much longer stay, because the Russians were just tired of it. We left Vietnam because of war fatigue. Nobody wants war without end. In a modern world where divisions of troops can be deployed in HOURS, and satellite intel can pinpoint enemy locations in SECONDS, wars that last years strike people as pointless. I can understand the weariness people have with a war that is becoming one of our longest.

But I don't give a crap about "respect" or what the world thinks. The world be damned. It never has and never will "respect" us.

Don't confuse envy with admiration or obsequiousness with respect - they'd all take our place in a heartbeat if they could.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
(((echo))) said:
whatever lowers the gas prices i'm all for it :yay:
but in all actuality we were screwed when skidmark declared war on terrorisim. Did his silly @ss not realize that we would be at war indefinately!?
Let me understand...

Option 1: Islamists declare war on us, attack us, and promise more attacks. We don't declare on this terror and they do what... Remain in their state of declared war on us and continue to attack us while we do what? Nothing? Keeping this one-sided war going indefinitely.

Option 2: Islamists declare war on us, attack us, and promise more attacks. We declare war on them, take the war to their soil, thwart attempted attacks on our country. Keeping this war going indefinitely.

You prefer option 1? And you call what "skidmark" did as "screwed"?
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Coventry17 said:
We already proved that we pull out when the going gets tough in Viet Nam, Haiti and Somalia. Our international reputation is already in the crapper, I doubt there's much more we could do as a nation to make it worse.
Why is it with some of you folks that believe WE (the US) are the ones making it worse. How is it that it was the terrorists (AND Saddam) that started this whole thing and that it is THEY - NOT US - that are making it worse? Why is it so impossible to believe this?
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
PsyOps said:
Keeping this war going indefinitely.

I understand the reasoning behind a kind of war that is going to take a long time. We fought wars against piracy for decades, and they were eventually defeated. Mostly. (Piracy still exists throughout the world, just not near our waterways). The Cold War was fought for decades, although by any measure, it was a weird kind of war.

But to my kind of thinking, any war that continues *indefinitely* isn't being fought right, or with enough resolve. You can embark on a "War on Poverty" or a "War on Drugs" and commit a lot of resources to it - but if you want to WIN THOSE WARS - you need a Manhattan Project or Project Apollo kind of national commitment to it. You don't toss bones to it, take photo ops and sound bites and tell everyone how committed you are to it while managing something that doesn't show measurable success. If you're in a war on drugs, or poverty, or global terror, and forty years later, all you have to show for it is a slippery slope argument of how bad it MIGHT HAVE BEEN if you hadn't - you're wasting your time.

Personally, I think that Iraq has a considerable amount of success, but it's being reported as a failure because people continue to die. In a conventional war, you can "measure" success by capture of territory, numbers of surrendering troops, destruction of enemy infrastructure and so on. When someone declares "WW2 is a failure! We are STILL losing troops after three years!" you can say "We kicked the damned Nazis out of Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and we're miles from Berlin. Please shut the hell up". It's more difficult to measure the same in Iraq, because we captured the whole country in just six weeks. We just don't have a simple way of demonstrating success, but deaths make *failure* seem more likely. If you show success by complicated data on weapons caches, terror organization disruptions, infrastructure rebuilding, security forces and so on, people's eyes will glaze over.

On the other hand - it's really not our war to fight anymore. We intend to engage in a war against global terror, and at this point, we're trying to stabilize a war-torn nation. It's quickly becoming less and less relevant to our goal. We're fighting global terror, and the insurgents are 'local' terror. We didn't sign up to fight every terrorist on the planet.

But back to my original point - you don't fight a war with the acknowledgment that it will never end. Fighting to achieve a draw is failure. The goal of war is not to kill every enemy combatant, but to break his will to continue fighting. If we aren't committed to achieving that goal, we need to stop.

Personally? I think we need to go in, world image be damned and kick the ever living crap out of anyone who even THINKS about bombing civilians. Because there's gotta be a reason bombs go off every day in Iraq, but don't go off every day in, say, Israel.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
SamSpade said:
I understand the reasoning behind a kind of war that is going to take a long time. We fought wars against piracy for decades, and they were eventually defeated. Mostly. (Piracy still exists throughout the world, just not near our waterways). The Cold War was fought for decades, although by any measure, it was a weird kind of war.

But to my kind of thinking, any war that continues *indefinitely* isn't being fought right, or with enough resolve. You can embark on a "War on Poverty" or a "War on Drugs" and commit a lot of resources to it - but if you want to WIN THOSE WARS - you need a Manhattan Project or Project Apollo kind of national commitment to it. You don't toss bones to it, take photo ops and sound bites and tell everyone how committed you are to it while managing something that doesn't show measurable success. If you're in a war on drugs, or poverty, or global terror, and forty years later, all you have to show for it is a slippery slope argument of how bad it MIGHT HAVE BEEN if you hadn't - you're wasting your time.

Personally, I think that Iraq has a considerable amount of success, but it's being reported as a failure because people continue to die. In a conventional war, you can "measure" success by capture of territory, numbers of surrendering troops, destruction of enemy infrastructure and so on. When someone declares "WW2 is a failure! We are STILL losing troops after three years!" you can say "We kicked the damned Nazis out of Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and we're miles from Berlin. Please shut the hell up". It's more difficult to measure the same in Iraq, because we captured the whole country in just six weeks. We just don't have a simple way of demonstrating success, but deaths make *failure* seem more likely. If you show success by complicated data on weapons caches, terror organization disruptions, infrastructure rebuilding, security forces and so on, people's eyes will glaze over.

On the other hand - it's really not our war to fight anymore. We intend to engage in a war against global terror, and at this point, we're trying to stabilize a war-torn nation. It's quickly becoming less and less relevant to our goal. We're fighting global terror, and the insurgents are 'local' terror. We didn't sign up to fight every terrorist on the planet.

But back to my original point - you don't fight a war with the acknowledgment that it will never end. Fighting to achieve a draw is failure. The goal of war is not to kill every enemy combatant, but to break his will to continue fighting. If we aren't committed to achieving that goal, we need to stop.

Personally? I think we need to go in, world image be damned and kick the ever living crap out of anyone who even THINKS about bombing civilians. Because there's gotta be a reason bombs go off every day in Iraq, but don't go off every day in, say, Israel.
I don’t subscribe the “this war is going to be indefinite” mentality. People were thinking the same thing during WWII. The difference between that generation and today’s is today’s Americans have lost their understanding of what it means to defend a nation. I think there is a large part of our population that doesn’t even believe we are a nation anymore. In our attempts to globalize and multiculturalize we have lost our identity. When we fought WWII Americans trusted our government to fight the war and stayed out of it. The media was simply a reporting factor and not serving some sort of agenda; so they stayed out of it. When we dropped the bombs on Japan, there was initial shock and outraged, but nearly everyone understood the brutal necessity of it.

Could WWII have been fought better? Of course! It’s easy to use 20/20 hindsight to analysis and criticize these things. But the criticism today has nothing to do with disagreement with this war. It has everything to do with politics. Today’s anti-war crowd had no problem with Kosovo, Somalia and all the bombing Clinton inflicted on Iraq (an act of war might I remind you). They seemed content with all the terrorist attacks we suffered during that period of time.

We have always stabilized war-torn areas. We have always taken responsibility for the damage we do. Europe and Japan are better places today for this. Using 20/20 hindsight I’m pretty comfortable saying WWII was the best thing that ever happened to them. And Americans were patient in this process of rebuilding in Europe, especially during some very uncertain time, during the Cold War. With the exception of Viet Nam we have never lost. Why? Not because of our superior military, not because of our leaders, not because of the commanders on the ground. We won those wars because the American people believed in it. THAT is the key to breaking the enemy’s will. Until we get a grip on this anti-war, secular-progressive movement (that is aimed at plunging this country into socialist/communist despair) we will never win this war, or any war. Why? The enemy knows they are cracking our will as a people - not as a military – but as a people.
 

High EGT

Gort! Klaatu barada nikto
Because of this, you'll never ever have the world's "respect" for doing the right thing. You can't. Because nations COMPETE. Invariably, doing the "right" thing makes it worse for some other nation's enlightened self-interest. I can barely recall a time when the United States undertook some bold move without getting heat from around the world, including our "friends".
HTML:
I guess 63 years ago this date is far to long for you to remember.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
So I got stoned and got to thinking,
When I was 19 and got stoned, I thought about things like pizza, chicks, and music. You get stoned and think about Iraq, KO, and Happy. What is wrong with you?
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
MMDad said:
When I was 19 and got stoned, I thought about things like pizza, chicks, and music. You get stoned and think about Iraq, KO, and Happy. What is wrong with you?
I thought about 3 large, 2 topping pizzas :shrug:





.. And then ate all 3. :killingme

And I had music on for your information. :smack:

Sublime :lmao:
I smoke two joints in the morning
I smoke two joint at night
I smoke two joint in the afternoon
It makes me feel all right

 
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