Iraq

[Hessian]

Seeing the photos of those 4 Contractors/servicemen being burned & dragged through the streets, then dismembered while the crowds cheer.

I am..very angry...very angry.

I remember the Hostages of iran..the chanting, the burned American Flags, I remember the failed rescue mission and the burned crewmen, I remember Somolia.

Do they think their celebrations will intimidate us? Will it make us cower? If I get a sense of what Bush is feeling, we ought to go in there and hit them real hard.

Or...set up a seige: No drinking water, no food until you turn over the criminals among you. Period...anyone leaving Falujah will be shot unless they are bringing out the guilty.
Starve or surrender.

 

[Christy]

Originally posted by Hessian

Or...set up a seige: No drinking water, no food until you turn over the criminals among you. Period...anyone leaving Falujah will be shot unless they are bringing out the guilty.
Starve or surrender.

I'm with you Hess.

Quite disturbing indeed.

 

[CMC122]

I have to say I agree too.

 

[vraiblonde]

It's not right to punish everyone for the deeds of a few. But you're right - it's probably time to get tougher with these folks. Why can't we just send a bomb down when they're all celebrating in the streets and wipe 'em out? The only ones down there will be enemies anyway.

 

[ylexot]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
It's not right to punish everyone for the deeds of a few. But you're right - it's probably time to get tougher with these folks. Why can't we just send a bomb down when they're all celebrating in the streets and wipe 'em out? The only ones down there will be enemies anyway.

I like the way you think...sometimes

 

[Hessian]

Black Ops

A must read is about the SOP unit in Viet Nam...quite a gutsy and clever unit(s). Perhaps best would be infiltration with loyal Iraqi's just to get information...pose as Al Jazeera reporters..get names of those that are so proud of their attacks...their torching of the bodies. Do the whole interview thing, show press passes etc. get names and addresses.

2 am: Drone launched missles target each of the homes of the criminals...all in 30 seconds or less.

Follow up with a pleasant reminder:
"We know who you are, there is no escape, we know where you live,...your neighbors have turned in some...the rest will be dead soon."
Turn yourself in if you wish to avoid instant death from the sky.

Its also helpful to install those mircro cameras/microphones during security sweeps and then later collect the info you need for "appropriate actions."

 

[crabcake]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
It's not right to punish everyone for the deeds of a few. But you're right - it's probably time to get tougher with these folks. Why can't we just send a bomb down when they're all celebrating in the streets and wipe 'em out? The only ones down there will be enemies anyway.

Vrai in '04!

 

[jlabsher]

Maybe we should examine our history of nation building in Germany & Japan. I know there was a lot of hostility towards the US in Germany after WWII, not on this scale, but maybe we could learn from our history? See how we reacted then, I don't think it was with more bombs, not a peacenik here, but that will only steel their resistance. Gain the majority trust & cooperation & let them deal with the insurgents possibly?

 

[crabcake]

 

[Hessian]

Germany...or Japan?

By 1944, the fervor of the Nazis had faded to fearful disgust among many of the Germans. There was no more dreams of a warrior's Valhalla or the 1000 year reich. The majority were fearful of the Russians and quietly hoping for the Brits or Americans to "liberate" them. Were there incidents in late '45 & 46? yes, but very few.
That situation does not apply all that well to what we are facing now.

Japan? Perhaps a better analysis: Our dynamic demonstration of the A-bomb and their rigid loyalty to the emperor's orders to end resistance helped to difuse some of the fanatical zeal.

What do both have in common that is not present in Iraq?
Answer: A sense of total defeat.

Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Hannover, Hiroshima

All were utterly devastated with the male population reduced to gaunt POW's, maimed wounded, or Dead in the service of the Führer/Emperor.

THIS STING HAS NOT BEEN FELT IN IRAQ BECAUSE WE ARE A GRACIOUS CONQUEROR.....this is perceived as weakness in the Middle east mindset.

Everywhere western man has offered democracy and civilization in the Middle east, it has eventually decayed into totalitarianism and fanaticism. Jordan? Syria? Iran? Bahrain? Kuwait? etc.

We are killing OURSELVES with kindness to them. Time to reverse this trend or leave quickly.

 

[ylexot]

More good news from Iraq

FALLUJAH, Iraq - Insurgents attacked a U.S. military convoy and a Humvee was burned Thursday near Fallujah, witnesses said, a day after the grisly killing and mutilation of four American contract workers in the city. The top U.S. administrator in Iraq said the deaths would not go unpunished.

"We will not let any foreigner enter Fallujah," said Sameer Sami, 40. "Yesterday's attack is proof of how much we hate the Americans."
Another resident, Ahmed al-Dulaimi, 30, said, "We wish that they would try to enter Fallujah so we'd let hell break lose."

I think it's time Fallujah was introduced to Mr. MOAB.

 

[itsbob]

Originally posted by jlabsher
Maybe we should examine our history of nation building in Germany & Japan. I know there was a lot of hostility towards the US in Germany after WWII, not on this scale, but maybe we could learn from our history? See how we reacted then, I don't think it was with more bombs, not a peacenik here, but that will only steel their resistance. Gain the majority trust & cooperation & let them deal with the insurgents possibly?

I lived in Germany off and on up to 1989, and to that point, and probably to today, we've always had to deal with terrorists there Baader Meinhopf, and the Red Brigade just to name two.. The last time my unit went to the field (Grafenwohr) for 30 days we had three or four bombs found in the housing area in where our families lived.. One was found by it exploding under the victims seat in his car.. he lived.. other was found also under his seat, but it didn't detonate.. he heard a LOUD click when he sat down, looked under his seat, and there was a bomb disguised as a fire extinguisher.. Upon searching the area they found one more under a car seat, and one or two more in the neighborhood dumpsters.

What we saw as normal everyday there, we will probably never see here except in extreme cases.. Frankfurt airport.. you look up at the balcony, you see two men, one sitting one standing.. in uniform. One has his personal weapon strapped across his body, a small UZI sub-machine gun, the other sits next to a case sitting on the floor.. sniper rifle sitting in the box at the ready to shoot anyone that looks like a threat.. and this was on a peaceful day. I understand these men are still there, are always there, just not as conspicuos now as they were then.

I patrolled with the German Police and the Bundeswehr.. and I can tell you, no matter where we went they were armed to the teeth. Sidearms strapped to their sides.. sub-machine guns strapped to the inside of their car doors.. and usually a crew served type weapon in the trunk.. like an MG3 or a sniper rifle.. They've lived like this for decades...

I don't think Iraq will always be as bad as it is now.. but I don't think it will EVERY be like the US either.. They will always have to deal with terrorists.

 

[itsbob]

Another difference too.. The Germans ALWAYS had one in the chamber.. BIG no-no for our guys..

 

[Hessian]

I really like that phrase..

"The Germans ALWAYS had one in the chamber."
(referring soley to weaponry)

Unfortunately I think it would be misunderstood as a bumper sticker.

 

[ylexot]

Re: I really like that phrase..

Originally posted by Hessian
"The Germans ALWAYS had one in the chamber."

Unfortunately I think it would be misunderstood as a bumper sticker.

Ewwww. That just made me cringe. Bad Hessian.

 

[Warron]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
It's not right to punish everyone for the deeds of a few. But you're right - it's probably time to get tougher with these folks. Why can't we just send a bomb down when they're all celebrating in the streets and wipe 'em out? The only ones down there will be enemies anyway.

I agree that it is not right to punish the entire population for the actions of a few. As for bombing them as they celebrate, it might sound like a good idea, but I doubt we even knew about it until after everyone was gone.

The biggest problem we have in these situations is figuring out who to hold responsible. It always seems that there is a call to punish every one in the area, but it's ignorance to claim the entire town is responsible. Would you like it if your entire community was held responsible for every crime that occured there. I personally wouldn't recognize 99% of the neighbors who live withing 1/4 mile of my apartment if I was to walk into them on the street. Half the murderer's and child molesters in the state could live on my street and I would not know about it.

Even the fact that there was celebration in the streets makes no difference. While in college there was a riot involving over 2000 people in the street below my apartment window. When I looked down at the riot I did not see a single person I knew. Should everyone in town have been starved to death until they turned over ever rioter even though, like myself, most people had no clue who was involved.

I learned long ago that group punishment doesn't help anything. The idea that the innocent will blame the guilty for the punishment is fiction. They blame the person doing the punishing and more enemies is not something we need.

 

[itsbob]

Re: I really like that phrase..

Originally posted by Hessian
"The Germans ALWAYS had one in the chamber."

Unfortunately I think it would be misunderstood as a bumper sticker.

Hmmm, may want to re-think the wording there.. if quoted out of context definetly doesn't look good!!

 

[Ken King]

I think it was on ABC last night that Dan Rather was talking about a poll conducted concerning if it was all right to attack Americans in Iraq. Nationwide result was 17% and for Faluzah it was something unreal like 71%.

Seems that hitting this area hard and regularly would do a lot towards getting rid of those that haven't figured out that they have lost the battle. Maybe it's time to get the A-10s and AC-130s back over there on regular kill missions.