Is David Stern past his 'sell by' date?

[Larry Gude]

Stern gets the credit for being in charge when the NBA became enormous. Another view would be he was lucky to come on the scene when Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Kareem, Dominique, Sir Charles, the Mailman and Stockton and some guy in Chicago happened to be playing along with a whole host of excellent second tier talents so, how smart or wise did he have to be?

His orchestration of the just ended lockout is most notable for the fact that no once cared. The NFL would have caused a national emergency had they dicked around much longer. The NHL learned their lesson and are still paying for it and baseball got the memo; just play. But, the NBA is struggling. To be sure, there are plenty of great talents including some hall of fame'ers but, what made the league, the names AND their teams, Birds Celts, Magic's Lakers, Thomas's Pistons, Utah and their guys, and what's his name and the Bull's, that is GONE. It's become ALL about the players and the loss of team identity simply isn't as compelling. Yeah, it's a bit over romanticized to think of a players 'love' and dedication to his jersey because it IS professional basketball but, there was also much truth to it. The Celtics are legend as are the Lakers. You can't think of Bird or Earvin or Micheal or Isiah or that Bull guy and NOT think of the Jersey.

Stern's stock in trade was that he created a star league. Well, I think we've found that the star has to be part of something bigger or it's just a bright light in the sky instead of the biggest part of something greater.

For whatever reason, however they got here, Stern is the commissioner and the league is suffering and no one cared if their millionaires settled their grievous differences with their billionaires. Stern was handed the ultimate life line when the team oriented Mavericks and their long time star, after years of frustration and heartbreak (the model that made the NBA great) got it done and beat the Evil Empire of the over Indulged.

Now, there has always been trades and big names moved; Kareem, Moses, Shaq, but, they go to start new interest. They aren't THE heart, THE name, THE identity of a given team. Magic does not move. Bird does not move. Jordan does not move (unless it's to play baseball). Kobe does not move. Pierce does not move. Wade does not move and, I am sorry, there is NO way James moves AND it's a good thing.

As I have argued before, Miami can NOT win. They win, they should have. They lose, at all, and they are ridiculed. Spoiled. Pampered. Brats. James stays in Cleveland, a team he was taking to the finals, that just needed maybe one more piece to join that pantheon of NBA legends and, now, bleh. Dis-interest.

Now, where is all this going? The rejection of the Paul to LA trade. Chris Paul is a great but, he's not a keystone player. Stern, in my view, should have let the trade go. Had this been Kobe to Nola, then it is like the James move and it is a bad move. The other way around, it's a all time great, Kobe, finding complimentary players to get it done again. Had they added Howard, a Paul type, not a Kobe or James type, then you've got a team people want to see every night BECAUSE they're great to balance a team people wanted to see every night to see them lose.

The trade could have been a huge boost to recover from the disinterest and Stern blew it. No one cares about New Orleans. Gasol serves the same purpose there as Paul does.

In any event, has Stern reached pasture time? I can't believe he stopped this just as much as I can't believe he allowed James to leave Cleveland. He seems to have lost understanding of what made the NBA great for a time.

Thoughts?

 

[somdfunguy]

This is why college basketball is so much more enjoyable.

 

[Larry Gude]

This is why college basketball is so much more enjoyable.

I dunno about that. NCAA basketball was a LOT more fun when kids stayed for four years so a fan could become attached much like my complaint about Stern. Blake, Lonny, Juan, Byron, Nicholas, that we got to enjoy them for several years, that they became OUR Terps was a lot more fun than this one or two year stuff. It was fun getting to know the opponents as well. I can't name one Terp this year. I can't name a Pukster either.

:shrug:

 

[Otter]

I dunno about that. NCAA basketball was a LOT more fun when kids stayed for four years

The NBA not only has hosed itself, but its hosed up college b-ball.

 

[BuddyLee]

The NBA could have a lot going for it. High drama and all that jazz. There's something that just seems shady and untrustworthy about the league and its players. I can't buy that so I'm about as big of a fan as I am for Baseball, which isn't much. It's disappointing because the game can be enjoyable to watch at times.

 

[Larry Gude]

The NBA could have a lot going for it. High drama and all that jazz. There's something that just seems shady and untrustworthy about the league and its players. I can't buy that so I'm about as big of a fan as I am for Baseball, which isn't much. It's disappointing because the game can be enjoyable to watch at times.

If the Paul trade goes through and, supposedly, they get Howard as well, then you've got not one but two evil empires and that is compelling and interesting to moderate fans like you and me.

I still can't believe they nixed this.

 

[Tilted]

Now, where is all this going? The rejection of the Paul to LA trade. Chris Paul is a great but, he's not a keystone player. Stern, in my view, should have let the trade go. Had this been Kobe to Nola, then it is like the James move and it is a bad move. The other way around, it's a all time great, Kobe, finding complimentary players to get it done again. Had they added Howard, a Paul type, not a Kobe or James type, then you've got a team people want to see every night BECAUSE they're great to balance a team people wanted to see every night to see them lose.

The trade could have been a huge boost to recover from the disinterest and Stern blew it. No one cares about New Orleans. Gasol serves the same purpose there as Paul does.

In any event, has Stern reached pasture time? I can't believe he stopped this just as much as I can't believe he allowed James to leave Cleveland. He seems to have lost understanding of what made the NBA great for a time.

Thoughts?

I think David Stern's vetoing of the Paul trade was a horrible, but not for the reasons you suggest. This situation points to why the league should never (unless it's an absolute last resort) be in the position of owning, and more to the point running, a team to begin with. There's a serious conflict of interest and either one (i.e. the league or the team) can be used to the benefit of the other at its own detriment.

This move by Mr. Stern damages the league's credibility, and the lie Mr. Stern is telling in regard to it damages his own. The league can have rules and such in order to promote competitive balance and interest in the league (e.g. rules as to what kinds of trades can be made), but it shouldn't use its authority as the owner of a particular team to make a team decision (i.e. the kind that is left to teams by the league's rules) for the benefit of the league as a whole rather than for the benefit of that team. Mr. Stern's assertions that this decision was made for basketball reasons, i.e. that he / they didn't feel it was in the Hornets best interest, is rubbish. This move was about what he (read: other owners) thought was in the league's best interest or, even worse, in their own specific best interests. This was about not letting Chris Paul (and then possibly Dwight Howard, which they might have then feared) go to the Lakers to join Kobe Bryant. This was not about what was best for New Orleans, which is what it needed to be about to be a legitimate decision considering the veto was made as the team's owner, not as the league's administrator.

All things considered, this was a pretty good deal for New Orleans. Mr. Paul isn't coming back after this season regardless, and they managed to get some meaningful pieces (and New York's 2012 first round draft pick) in return for him. What is New Orleans going to be able to get for him in 2 months? In 5 months? Without assurances that he'd resign with the new team? Not as much as New Orleans was getting in this deal. This was the league manipulating a particular team's operations to benefit the rest of the league (or certain other teams, at least as they saw it - which way I don't know that I agree with), the fortunes of that team be damned.

And Pau Gasol would have been going to Houston, not New Orleans, in this deal.

To Mr. Stern's performance more generally, I thought he was doing a good job of handling the situation with the player's union until the owners caved at the last minute for fear of losing the season (and Christmas day games).

 

[Larry Gude]

To Mr. Stern's performance more generally, I thought he was doing a good job of handling the situation with the player's union until the owners caved at the last minute for fear of losing the season (and Christmas day games).

The situation? He created the situation. Where did all these enormous, crippling guaranteed contracts come from? Where did the compensation model come from that makes baseball's seem well thought out?

:shrug:

 

[Tilted]

The situation? He created the situation. Where did all these enormous, crippling guaranteed contracts come from? Where did the compensation model come from that makes baseball's seem well thought out?

:shrug:

Yes, but our having initially created particular situations doesn't mean that we don't have to (or can't) deal with them. Nor does it mean that our handling of those situations (which we initially created) can't be assessed, nor even that we can't be given credit for their handling just as we might be criticized for their creation.

Listening to Mr. Stern speak, he's an intelligent guy and his temperament is well-suited to problem solving. He was an effective spokesman for the owners' hardened stance in the collective bargaining negotiations, but ultimately they blinked first so his skills went underutilized to some degree - the league wasn't able to get a deal that significantly better situated it for long term success.

I think Mr. Stern's reign as NBA commissioner has been mostly beneficial (i.e. to the NBA), but I have disagreed with his decisions and stances a fair number of times.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yes, but our having initially created particular situations doesn't mean that we don't have to (or can't) deal with them. Nor does it mean that our handling of those situations (which we initially created) can't be assessed, nor even that we can't be given credit for their handling just as we might be criticized for their creation.

I agree with that 100%; arsonists make wonderful arson detectives. I mean that in a complimentary way. That said, they are still arsonists.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think Mr. Stern's reign as NBA commissioner has been mostly beneficial (i.e. to the NBA), but I have disagreed with his decisions and stances a fair number of times.

I think Stern had the good fortune of the talent that was around during his tenure. The players, their personalities and ambitions. It doesn't take make much of a chef when you have great ingredients. Now, he has a whole new crop of players and far too many of them could give a crap less about legacy be it their own or their teams or the league.

 

[Tilted]

I agree with that 100%; arsonists make wonderful arson detectives. I mean that in a complimentary way. That said, they are still arsonists.

In this case, wouldn't the more apt comparison be to that of arsonists being firefighters? Mr. Stern was trying to undo some of the damage done by prior policy, or limit some of the damage going forward, not figure out what exactly happened or assign blame there for.

 

[Larry Gude]

In this case, wouldn't the more apt comparison be to that of arsonists being firefighters? Mr. Stern was trying to undo some of the damage done by prior policy, or limit some of the damage going forward, not figure out what exactly happened or assign blame there for.

My point is that he built this mess. He certainly should know how to fix it. Or, barring that, at least know what he did wrong. Or, barring that much self awareness, at least, if nothing else, know how it was built.

 

[BuddyLee]

If the Paul trade goes through and, supposedly, they get Howard as well, then you've got not one but two evil empires and that is compelling and interesting to moderate fans like you and me.

I still can't believe they nixed this.

That would actually drive me away even more so. I love parity, which is one reason why I enjoy the NFL. You never know really.

Seems like the same ol' teams in the NBA.

 

[Larry Gude]

That would actually drive me away even more so. I love parity, which is one reason why I enjoy the NFL. You never know really.

Seems like the same ol' teams in the NBA.

If we step back from this issue, I agree.

An idea I have always liked is simply enforcing the rules. People hardly ever foul out of NBA games and that is impossible. There should be three or four people per team per game. If folks are fouling out, all of a sudden, dopes like Gil Arena's are not as important and team depth starts to matter, a lot.

All of a sudden, it's about team.

 

[Tilted]

My point is that he built this mess. He certainly should know how to fix it. Or, barring that, at least know what he did wrong. Or, barring that much self awareness, at least, if nothing else, know how it was built.

Yeah, I gotcha, I was just picking nits as boredom at that specific and solitary moment made nitpicking seem a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yeah, I gotcha, I was just picking nits as boredom at that specific and solitary moment made nitpicking seem a worthwhile endeavor.

No, you were defending satan!!!

 

[Beta84]

Interesting stuff there Larry. With the Howard and Paul sagas still ongoing, you have to wonder when it'll end. The lockout was an attempt to reduce the diva crap that's going on in the NBA, but they obviously failed. I haven't noticed any other league with the same situation as the NBA: "This is my last season on contract so you better trade me because I'm out of here!"

What I find amazing about all of this is that Lebron is still being vilified for leaving the Cavs (a team that was TERRIBLE without him, so it was obvious their GM sucked and he made the right move), when Carmelo, Williams, Paul, Howard, and others haven't received the same type of backlash for holding their teams hostage WHILE UNDER CONTRACT! It's absurd.

For all Stern supposedly fought for, he's a reason why the league is losing. If he wants to make it a league where diva players can't control as much, then he needs to say that CP3 is staying put NO MATTER WHAT (b/c NBA owns CP3's team). Trading him only proves that these players are in control, and Stern loses. I still don't see why the NBA is pissed off with the players. Aren't the Lakers trying to trade Gasol/Bynum/Odom and the Clippers willing to trade everyone besides Blake Griffin? The Nets are willing to trade everyone but Williams to acquire Howard (I'm just noticing many of these NBA players have last names that are normally first names ). So the league can't blame the players for wanting to have a say in where they go when the owners are so freely trading anyone that's not a top 10 franchise player.

As for the Hornets, the NBA wants the team to be attractive to be a potential owner. Losing Paul for nothing doesn't help them, and they won't win a title this year. So they're trying to prepare themselves for the future with good players, picks, and a lower salary in order to tempt someone to buy them. Any owner would do the same thing if they weren't in a win-now mode.

I am a huge college basketball fan as well and wanted to echo the fact that was mentioned -- the NBA is really screwing up the college game. If the kid isn't going to be a STUDENT athlete then there's no reason he should play college. At least in football & baseball they're in it for 3 years, so they either find out they're not as good as they think they are and stay longer, or can contribute to a team for awhile and in both scenarios they get an education out of it.