ISRAEL - PALESTINE

[Ken King]

Putting it to a vote.  Interesting thought.  However the only answer is that they both most stop but apparently that isn't a choice, so sad.  The Israelis need to stop taking the land of the Palestinians and the Palestinians need to stop the suicide attacks.  If only one ceases the other will overwhelm them.  Flash back to the late 60s early 70s, "Give peace a chance."

 

[Frank]

Not convinced. See, the Palestinians were attacking Israelis *before* they seized all that land back in 1967. Who in the world thinks that if they just gave it all back, everybody would kiss and make up?

 

[vraiblonde]

Palestinian suicide bomber kills 19 at a Passover service today.  Is that "King's Corner" or "Cornered King"?    God, I make me laugh!

(Edited by vraiblonde at 9:15 pm on Mar. 27, 2002)

 

[BigBrothaCon]

As far as I can tell the Arafat needs to reign in some control because he is allowing his thugs to commit these acts of terror and I feel he is doing nothing about it.  We have given him too many opportunities to change and he is not willing to.  Arafat is thug and a terrorist and does not deserve to be taken seriously.  

 

[Ken King]

Vraiblonde,

I see you are full of yourself this morning, try a little Ex-Lax or some bran, it might help.  Gee, I can make myself laugh too.  

Frank,

Why is it that the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis?  Come on, think about it, does it have anything to do with the Israelis taking their land?  You bet it does.  That has always what this fighting has been about.  But now there is a plan that the Arabs see as being able to get these people on the road to peace, shouldn't it be explored?  Only if anyone wants peace in that region.

 

[Ken King]

BBC,

How is Arafat suppose to do this reigning in when he is being prevented from interacting with his people?  Israel has basically kept him under confinement for months, how can Arafat be effective.  The Isarelis attack those (security forces) who are tasked with trying to capture those that plan and carry out the attacks.  All the while building more “settlements”.  We also have not given Arafat any opportunities, we have only chastised him for failing to do what we (our Israeli friendly government) want.  Where is the equal pressure from our government on the Israelis to pull back from this colonization effort?  There is none, it has been a one way street that leads to continued death and destruction for the Palestinians.

Adequate pressure needs to be exerted on both of these people, boundaries need to be drawn (or adhered to), in an effort to obtain peace.  

 

[vraiblonde]

Ken sez

We also have not given Arafat any opportunities, we have only chastised him for failing to do what we (our Israeli friendly government) want.

Never say die, baby!  That's the spirit!  I seem to recall many opportunities for Arafat to take up the gauntlet of peace - no matter what concessions are made in his favor, it's never enough.  That tells me that peace is not the goal with these people.

Is it possible that if Arafat were to stop bombing religious services, discos and other civilian targets, Sharon would take the pressure off him?  You know, Ken, it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong...want to hear <i>my</i> Middle East Peace Plan?

 

[Frank]

Ken,

What I'm saying is, the present peace plan involves rolling back and returning all of the land - basically, return to the 1967 border. And I'm saying that's a pipe dream, because they attacked Israel back THEN. I mean, if the fight is over the seized land, what was the reason BEFORE 1967? There are Palestinians who have said, on TV, that the only solution is to kill every single Jew in Israel. The West bank and east Jerusalem will NOT be enough. There will STILL be bombings until those who speak for the Palestinians decide to shut it down themselves.

 

[Ken King]

Vraiblonde,

Yes some opportunities have been missed over the years.  But I seem to recall that the sticking points were return of land and the right of return for those displaced.  There have not been any concessions on these points by either side.  That tells me that neither side has been willing to give in order to achieve peace.  You say, “Is it possible that if Arafat were to stop bombing religious services, discos and other civilian targets, Sharon would take the pressure off him?”  I’ll ask how he can do this when Sharon targets his police forces with attacks, locks Arafat down, and responds to every act with military action.  All that does is keep the fire burning and the Israelis appear to feel that this is just the price they have to pay to obtain the land that they want.  And no I don’t want to hear of how you think that the Israelis should just wipe them out and be done with it.  Nuke them until they glow.  That would do a lot to bring peace to that region, NOT.

Frank,

You say it is a pipe dream and I say it is what was directed by the UN in Resolution 242.  One phrase in this adopted resolution says, “Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security”. Also you said “they attacked”, I take it you mean the Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians, not just Palestinians.  Actually the attack was pre-emptive by the Israelis.

I have also said in previous discussions that I don’t think this will be the end of it all, but it is a good starting point.  Let’s get everyone back where they belong, get some form of peacekeeping group in place, recognize each country and try to work through the remaining issues by negotiation and not war.  Let’s take away the main reason for the suicide bomber, that being Israeli presence in their territory.

 

[vraiblonde]

My retorts:

Yes some opportunities have been missed over the years.

 How diplomatic of you!  

I’ll ask how he can do this when Sharon targets his police forces with attacks, locks Arafat down, and responds to every act with military action.

When you attack military and government targets, it's considered an acceptable act of war.  When you specifically go after the civilians (like the Palestinians do), it's terrorism.  Notice the al Qaeda didn't go after a military target - they went after a group of civilians instead?  That's because they're <i>terrorists</i>, not a legitimate military that can declare war.  I'm sure I don't need to draw you a picture.

And no I don’t want to hear of how you think that the Israelis should just wipe them out and be done with it.

Actually, my method would be to move all Israelis out of the region - relocate them to South America like the terrorists want.  THEN nuke the place to kingdom come.  When it stops glowing, we can repopulate the area with civilized human beings.  Yay!  More oil for us!

Let’s get everyone back where they belong

And just where do you think the Israelis belong?  Apparently not their own country (which is called "Israel", by the way, not "Palestine" - I looked it up on a map).

Let’s take away the main reason for the suicide bomber, that being Israeli presence in their territory.

Really?  Is <i>that</i> the main reason for the suicide bomber?  You might want to explain that to the suicide bombers who target the US - they seem to think it's something else.  And it's not "their" territory, nor has it been for some time.

Here's my question: the US has military bases set up all over the world - why doesn't any other country have a military base set up <i>here</i>?  Or do they and I'm just not aware of it?

 

[Ken King]

Vraiblonde,

Are those that are called “settlers” by the Israelis civilians or are they also terrorists?  After all, their presence is a threat to those that own the land.  These are what could be identified as an occupying enemy.  The Palestinians do not have a military so the civilians are doing the fighting.  Weapons available to a military have been banned from their use.  Israel on the other hand has a significant military ability and they use it regularly.  Always have.  

Next you compare them to the Al Qaeda.  Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization dedicated to the removal of all who don’t agree with their philosophy.  The Palestinians, in my view, just want to exist without being colonized by the Israelis.  The don’t want to give up any more of their land because the Israelis want it.

I am sure that the Arabs in the region would like to see the Israelis pack up and move but I believe that they can accept them there.  The current plan unanimously approved by the Arab Conference is at least a step towards coming to a way to deal with this.  It is a start and to be coming from the voices of the other Arab nations is quite amazing.  No one needs to move or glow to bring this to a resolution.  Swallowing pride on both sides and working this out is what would be best for all the world.

Where do the Israelis belong?  That is easy for me, see UN Resolution 181 http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ps0 this was what created Israel and was suppose to create Palestine leaving Jerusalem neutral and independent.

“Here's my question: the US has military bases set up all over the world - why doesn't any other country have a military base set up <i>here</i>? Or do they and I'm just not aware of it?”  Well, I am unsure of what you are getting at, but the UN is pretty much handling it and not very effective either.  They have three ongoing operations over there; UNTSO, UNIFIL, and UNDOF.  UNTSO is responsible for supervising the observance of the truce in Palestine.  It has, as of 31 Jan 2002, 151 military observers, supported by 101 international civilian personnel and 112 local civilian staff.  UNIFIL is responsible for confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon; restore international peace and security; assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. It has 3,494 troops, assisted by some 50 military observers of UNTSO; and supported by 137 international civilian personnel and 319 local civilian staff.  UNDOF was created to maintain the cease-fire between Israel and Syria, to supervise the disengagement of Israeli and Syrian forces, and to supervise the areas of separation and limitation, as provided in the Agreement on Disengagement.  It has 1,032 troops, assisted by some 80 military observers of UNTSO's Observer Group Golan; supported by 37 international civilian personnel and 90 local civilian staff.  Notice with the assisting of the other efforts only 21 military observers are left to concentrate on Palestine.  Any wonder this has gone no where for so long.

Now Arafat is calling for a cease-fire, are we finally moving towards peace?  


(Edited by Ken King at 6:30 pm on Mar. 28, 2002)

 

[Christy]

Vrai, your peace plan is soooo much more peaceful than mine!  But here's a somewhat peaceful solution.  I'd ship all the Palestinians and all the other Isreali haters off to France.  I'd then give Isreal the whole Middle East.  See how they like them apples!

 

[vraiblonde]

Much as I'd like to nuke the French, the other European countries don' t deserve to have those terrorist buttheads as their next door neighbors.  Tony Blair would have a cow if those idiots were right across the English Channel from him.  Of course, he doesn't seem to mind the French, so you never know...

Ken, the first step in the peace process is for the Palestinians to stop targeting civilians.  Until that happens, there will be no talk.  Can you imagine the pressure Sharon is under from his people to DO SOMETHING?  Bush keeps calling for "restraint" on the part of the Israelis, but should they just sit there and let these freaks wipe out their citizens?

Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization dedicated to the removal of all who don’t agree with their philosophy.  The Palestinians, in my view, just want to exist without being colonized by the Israelis.  The don’t want to give up any more of their land because the Israelis want it.

That's your view, and that's fine.  But the evidence shows the Palestinians acting <i>exactly</i> like terrorists so it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The question about the military bases has nothing to do with the Middle East - I was just wondering.  Military personnel get statoned overseas in all kinds of weird countries yet, to my knowledge, there isn't a single foreign military base on US soil.  Why is this?

 

[Lilly]

Doesn't sound like there will be any "peace process" now.
Anybody know whether Bush has declared any support/ criticism for what Israel has done?
That would be interesting to know . . .

 

[Golden]

First off, Ken, you've doen an excellent job of explaining this complicated situation.  Now for the rest of you let me clear up a couple of errors & misconceptions I've seen on some of these posts. For one, I've seen in a number of places where people are using 1967 as the date where the Israelis first took Palestinian land, when in fact, it was in 1948 when the state of Israel was created by the UN that Palestinian land was first "stolen," which is why many Palestinians still feel that all of Palestine/Israel is there land.  In fact it dates back much further, to at least the first Aliyah (sorry about the spelling) of eastern European Zionists to their biblical "homeland."  However these first settlers, not to mention the saffafidic (again, sorry @ the spelling) jews who'd never left, were able to live in relative harmony with the indigenous people (ie the Palestinians).  It was not until later when increasing numbers of Jews migrated, and later fled there (largely thanks to the US' unwillingness to open its borders to those fleeing the holocaust) that the different groups could no longer live together peacfully.  As for the Palestinians being the only "terrorists" operating in this struggle, then how do you explain groups like the Stern Gang or the Tears of the Children (Or different groups by similar names).  The former was a self described terrorist group who carried out viscious attacks on Palestinians prior to the creation of Israel, & for a while after.  The latter are modern day Israeli terrorist groups opperating throughout Palestinian areas.  Also, some of you have said that the Israelis are not harming Palestinina Civilians, but this is simply not true.  How else do you describe the slaughter of entire Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon while Sharon was Defense Minister, or the destruction of homes by Israelis Buldozers and tanks, or the roundup of all males over the ages of 15 in many camps, or the practice of firing on palestinian ambulances by Israeli soldiers making it impossible for many wounded to receive medical attention.  I'll end this here since I seem to have gone on for prabably a bit to long & many of you probably will not bother to read this anyways, sorry.

 

[Ken King]

Golden,

Welcome aboard the forums.  You'll get read don't worry about that and trust me your post isn’t even close to being what I would call long.  Hang around long enough and I'm sure we'll cross paths were we don't agree.  Happily, at least for me, you see what I am seeing.  Probably because we are the only ones looking.  Can't blame the masses for believing what is pushed down their throats every night on the tube and every day in the papers.  It's become too convenient to just watch or read what our media wants us to see.  If it hadn’t been for the Internet I would probably still believe and side with Israel.  But I learned to surf and search effectively and can find pretty much anything about everything.  Knowledge is what it’s about.

 

[BudoPo]

Ken,

The internet is a great resource, but just keep in mind that much (if not most) of the information is only worth the paper it's written on.

 

[Ken King]

BudoPo,

I fully understand that and read both sides of the issue, analyze the sources and make my own determinations.   I read the agreements we've entered into and how we have agreed to act.  I also realize that two people could set down and read the exact same information and come up with a totally different conclusion.  Such is life.  

BTW if I haven't welcomed you either I sure do.  New people add so much to the forums.  The more the merrier.  Welcome aboard and keep on posting.


(Edited by Ken King at 6:10 pm on April 2, 2002)

 

[PSLN]

Israel is supported by the US.  Political relationships cause irrational behavior by policy makers.... and you don't see the real picture on TV because everyone is looking out for their best interest.  

You will see no PEACE untill all is equal, no matter how much power the powerfull have, they can't stop someone from killing themselves and others.  

Israel must stop using these oppressive, NAZI tactics or they will never have PEACE!!!

(Edited by PSLN at 4:45 pm on April 10, 2002)

 

[a70stingray]

You will probably see the extent that Israel has overstepped there bounds in humanitarian brutality...shortly.

It amazes me how many people in the U.S. make quick and very uninformed decisions. Take a look at the situation...weigh the facts and ask yourself...hmmm, what would I do if I were on either side.  Human nature will dictate the outcome over there.  Intervention will only lengthen the time that it takes for human nature to overtake.

This is my guess...
Israel is extremely pissed off...hammering the palestinians.  The palestinians..a few weeks from now...will attempt to capitalize on their loss, gaining support from arab/muslim nations (Possibly the UN and Europe).  Israel will attempt to cut off each of the palestinian communities spread throughout their land...trapping the palestinians and limiting their travels.  Tensions will grow even worse.  Suicide bombings will continue...with a new generation of young suicidal "marters" who have yet to hit the black list of those wanted by the Israelis.

The U.S. doesn't have a clue as to what they will do.  Neither does anyone else.  Why...because new ideas are hard to come by.  A real stalemate..in other words.  So, we (the U.S. and everyone else who wants to appear like they are doing something good) will spin their wheels.

Meanwhile, back in Israel/Palestein, tensions will be uncontrollably intense.  Israel will have their hands covering their face while palestinians realize the loss they have suffered.  Suicide bombings will continue, organizations will be made to develop new strategies to punish Israel...being backed by richer muslim nations...posiibly Iraq or Syria and the younger generations of Osama Bin Laden. In their minds its a fight to the death...Ironically...they don't care if they die trying... if you didn't already notice.

In the end? Who knows.  If I were to shoot in the dark I'd guess that the only answer would be land.  Palestinians need a place to live.  They don't need 20 Berlins in Israel. They need a common border.  Since this is very unlikely I see a very intense situation developing between supporters of arab/muslim nations and the west.  Our "War on Terrorism" will become very long, expensive and complicated.  The problems won't just be there.  They will be everywhere.  

We have a pissed off dog and an alley cat fighting in a toilet bowl. We are all happy dogs and cats watching the battle.  Secretly we want our own side to win. To the other side we preach about how peaceful we are and how the past has caused the two in the toilet to act like crazy idiots.  The problem is that the dog has all the land outside the toilet.  The cat has lost it's kittens and is bleeding severely.