I've stepped on Breeders Toes - I understand

krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
Okay, just checked my "karma" -
Obviously I've stepped on some breeders toes around here judging from what this says:
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Two Senior Labs at TriC... 11-14-2006 09:29 AM <B>Practice what U Preach and STFU </B>
PIC-4 yr old GSD Needs ... 11-09-2006 08:47 AM <b>Because your the ####ing idiot that bashes breeders, thats what it has to do with it </B>
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Only thing I can add is that if I'm offending you by my signature, you must not be COE (Code of Ethics) Breeders or you would understand my position.

If you don't rescue - don't breed - PERIOD

I'm glad an anonymous board gives you the courage to give such nasty Karma - be a man or a woman - be public about your beliefs, I am.
 

cattitude

My Sweetest Boy
You're trying to do a good thing and you are entitled to your opinions. Not all people that call themselves breeders and sell puppies are responsible.

Keep up the good work.
 

migtig

aka Mrs. Giant
cattitude said:
You're trying to do a good thing and you are entitled to your opinions. Not all people that call themselves breeders and sell puppies are responsible.

Keep up the good work.
:yeahthat: And I do happen to know that you practice what you preach. :love:
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
Nucklesack said:
I think its more the Holier than Though attitude you exude pertaining to Breeding.
I know many good breeders (and their dogs dont starve thank you). But you are trying to equate all Breeders with the backyard breeders at the Amish Market and they are 2 different animals.


I think the point krazd_kat is trying to make is not that breeders don't feed their dogs or take care of them well enough...but that there are so many homeless animals out there already. Part of being a responsible breeder is breeding for the right reason. Just because you have cute dogs is not a responsible reason. Just because you want your kids to see the birth of puppies is not a responsible reason. Breeding to improve the breed is a responsible reason. People who breed with no regard of how many dogs are out there already, and who breed dogs that are not of exceptional quality (both physically and mentally) should not breed.
 

krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
Nucklesack said:
I think its more the Holier than Though attitude you exude pertaining to Breeding.
I know many good breeders (and their dogs dont starve thank you). But you are trying to equate all Breeders with the backyard breeders at the Amish Market and they are 2 different animals.

I have never equated COE Breeders with the BYB's that sell at the Amish Market.

Responsible Breeding Steps

I do have a problem with anyone that breeds their dogs w/o proper planning, health clearances, and standing behind the puppy for the rest of it's life. A

I will apologize if I come across as "Holier than Though", I only mean to come across as someone with a conscience.

Go volunteer for a day or two at TriCounty and see how you feel about anyone that wants to breed their dog "because everyone wants one of my puppies". Walk through there and see all the dogs that will never come out of that place. If you have a soul that should make you come face to face with yourself.
 

krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
Cowgirl said:
I think the point krazd_kat is trying to make is not that breeders don't feed their dogs or take care of them well enough...but that there are so many homeless animals out there already. Part of being a responsible breeder is breeding for the right reason. Just because you have cute dogs is not a responsible reason. Just because you want your kids to see the birth of puppies is not a responsible reason. Breeding to improve the breed is a responsible reason. People who breed with no regard of how many dogs are out there already, and who breed dogs that are not of exceptional quality (both physically and mentally) should not breed.

Thank you - that's exactly what I mean.
 

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
WELL....i AM a COE Rottie Breeder. Have been breeding for 25 years, with lots of AKC/Canadian Conformation and obedience titles to my credit. We are also well known for long lived healthy Rotts (almost unheard of now a days).
With that said...i do NOT rescue Rotties for several reasons. Not the least of which is the inherent danger to my family taking in dogs of unknown history. It's not worth it to me or my other dogs in terms of disease and ill temperament. Many Rotties in rescue are there for a reason as i can attest too, with nerve damage to both hands as a result of a severe, unprovoked bite, from a dog that gave no warning. He had been taught NOT to growl, hence the BITE, with no growl (warning). His "new rescuers" had brought him to me for evaluation, because he was (unbeknownst to me of course) biting THEM. The poor placement, training and socialzation equalled the Blue juice for him, through no fault of his own.
What I DO offer, is assistance with placement, if i can. I offer referrals if possible and only in certain circumstances (where i can gather enough info on the dog that i feel it's placement is through unfortunate circumstances, often beyond the control of the family).

I always ask folks who contact me with emails or phone calls professing they HAVE to get the dog out NOW or else....is this question: "Did you contact the breeder?" that simple questions drives my point home. Ethical, caring breeders bear a cradle to grave responsibility for what they produce.

The countless hours i have spent with people coaching them in the "right" way, very often ends with another phone call...."Um...hey...i bought puppy X from breeder Z, because it was ONLY X dollars and i really only want a "pet" anyways....but while i have you on the phone...puppy-puppy is biting my kids and drawing blood, or puppy-puppy was just diagnosed with severe HD or Demodectic mange, or Parvo...whatever..... what should i do?....can you help me?" :tantrum NO. Ask your "breeder". Why should we be ultimately resposible for the actions of others, when we can only control our own?
Climbing off my soapbox now....

In reading your signature line, you say "support" rescue...what exactly does that mean?
 
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krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
happyappygirl said:
I always ask folks who contact me with emails or phone calls professing they HAVE to get the dog out NOW or else....is this question: "Did you contact the breeder?" that simple questions drives my point home. Ethical, caring breeders bear a cradle to grave responsibility for what they produce. ...

From your website...:
Please take this information into consideration
BEFORE you decide to have "just one litter".
<B>AND IF YOU DON'T HELP WITH RESCUE, in some way, PLEASE DON'T BREED! </B>
Spend some time in your local Humane Society or Animal Control Office.
They can always use volunteers!
This is also a great way to get that "Puppy Fix" Some of us crave :eek:)

We appear to preach the same thing. <I><B>AND IF YOU DON'T HELP WITH RESCUE, in some way, PLEASE DON'T BREED! </B>
</I> Even when breeders can't foster for the reason't you posted, there are other ways in which COE breeders can help rescue. Referrals is one, donations are another.

I know of one breeder of one of the big dog breeds (I'd have to look up the page again), who keeps the deposits of people that change their minds on buying from her due to $$ considerations, she then takes 1/2 of that and donates to a breed specific rescue, as she feels ultimately that's where too many of the BYB puppies wind up.
 

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
Nucklesack said:
Because only one or two of your Puppys go to good homes, the rest are left Starving and/or abused.

You are Perpetuating the neverending cycle of Violence and need to step up to the plate and Rescue EVERY Rottweiler that is at Tri-County, it is your Responsibility.

(that was posted with :sarcasm: )
OMG my "dog" filing cabinet is brimming with folders and contracts on every single puppy i've ever produced, and in each file folder are cards, notes, pix, condolences, vet reports you name it. Not to mention the research on every disease they can be afflicted with, so that i can send info along to those who may need it... THANK GAWD for the internet and weblinks, :lol:

I have had ONE person reject ME, telling me he was buying a DOG...not a house and didn't want to sign any contract. I told him i figured he'd put more time into buying a dish washer than a living breating creature capable of great things. :shrug: oh well. his loss i figured.

FWIW, Rotts have the highest number of disqualifying breeding faults of any other breed known to AKC. SO it is a difficult row to hoe when one choses to do it "the right way". It's also a little comforting to know "most" folks only stick with a particular breed for an average of 5 years then move on to another breed to a quicker buck.
 
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krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
happyappygirl said:
In reading your signature line, you say "support" rescue...what exactly does that mean?

As my previous post says, there are a number of ways to "support" rescue. I know and can appreciate the fact that alot of COE breeders cannot take in rescues of their breed to foster for a number of reasons.
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
Nucklesack,
Why such anger? :shrug:



Oh, and when you make the word "puppy" plural, you change the "y" to an "i" and add "es." :yay:
 

happyappygirl

Rocky Mountain High!!
Nucklesack said:
theres no anger, but equating all breeders who sale puppy's with the backyard amish breeders who also sale puppy's is just ridiculous. the to are not the same, and there very little in common.



(purposely misspelled)
We already have a spelling nazi, you havent been here long enough to take over.
so what breed do you sell?

FWIW the Amish fellow i got my puggle from (YES I paid money for a mongeral) provided me with shot and worming records on him (surprise surprise). Unfortunately, this puppy has Mast cell cancer...i'm not sure what i'm going to do about that. He prolly won't live to see adulthood and he's only 8 months old. I'm "pretty sure" if i went back to him and told him, he'd give me another puppy...but i'm not sure if i want one.

How do you define a back yard breeder? Just curious.
 
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mygoldnhorse

Cowgirl Up
happyappygirl said:
Unfortunately, this puppy has Mast cell cancer...i'm not sure what i'm going to do about that. He prolly won't live to see adulthood and he's only 8 months old. I'm "pretty sure" if i went back to him and told him, he'd give me another puppy...but i'm not sure if i want one.
That is horrible that your little puggle has cancer. Do you think that the other puppies he sells would also have this?
 

krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
happyappygirl said:
so what breed do you sell?
If you're asking me, I do not breed, I rescue.

happyappygirl said:
FWIW the Amish fellow i got my puggle from (YES I paid money for a mongeral) provided me with shot and worming records on him (surprise surprise). Unfortunately, this puppy has Mast cell cancer...i'm not sure what i'm going to do about that. He prolly won't live to see adulthood and he's only 8 months old. I'm "pretty sure" if i went back to him and told him, he'd give me another puppy...but i'm not sure if i want one.

I can't believe as a COE breeder that you would ever even consider purchasing a dog from the Amish (let alone even purchasing a cross bred dog), who you could easily call either "Puppy Mills or Back Yard Breeders". I do not know of a single Amish breeder that has ever done all the proper testing to ensure well bred dogs. I will agree that probably 80% (depending on the breed), do not have any problems throughout their lives. But the other 20%, the new owners will deal with the $$ and the heartbreak of poorly bred dogs. Now before someone jumps me on the numbers, these are purely my own guestimates.

happyappygirl said:
How do you define a back yard breeder? Just curious.

Here is a good page with descriptions of Puppy Mills and Back Yard Breeders (I have copied the BYB information), this explains it far better than I can.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1448&S=1&SourceID=47


What Does the Term
Backyard Breeder Mean?

Another attempt to define various kinds of breeders results in the term backyard breeder. This term is used to describe people who breed dogs without knowing what they are doing. The motive may be profit, and occasionally someone of this sort will make a tidy profit from turning out puppies without spending the money to provide them with good care.

More typically they'll produce one litter, find out how expensive, exhausting and heartbreaking it is to breed dogs, and have their female spayed. The American Kennel Club estimated in 1996 that about 70 percent of purebred, AKC-registered puppies were from this source.

The backyard-bred puppy may make an all right companion dog, if the parents were good companion dogs. Genetic health and temperament problems may be waiting to emerge as the pup matures, since this type of breeder isn't likely to have done the appropriate testing of both parents to make a good genetic pairing. It's completely a gamble as to how things will turn out with a puppy you acquire from this type of breeder.

You should expect that these pups will have missed early experiences that a responsible and knowledgeable breeder would have provided. It's also likely some things will have been done that were not good for the future temperament of the pups, such as mishandling by children.

These puppies are probably the cheapest pups to purchase, especially the ones the breeder can't sell at the most profitable "cute" age. Responsible breeders have homes lined up for their puppies in advance. They have acquired reputable credentials on the appropriateness of the parent dogs before breeding, in the form of testing for genetic problems common in their breeds as well as titles or other verification that the dogs are good examples of their breed. As a result, their puppies are in demand. The unprepared, uninformed person who decides to give breeding a try is surprised to find there's no demand for carelessly bred pups, especially at high prices.

Without care for making good genetic matches between purebred dogs, it's the nature of breeding for the healthiness of the breed to deteriorate. Only a strenuous effort to maintain good health in the breed prevents this natural effect. In the wild, survival of the fittest works to preserve a species. Unlike wild canines, dogs who live with people don't have to be able to hunt for their food, and they can live with severe disabilities.

As a result, there is no survival of the fittest among purebred dogs unless breeders make responsible decisions to remove the less fit from the gene pool. Unlike nature wherein these dogs would die, in our homes they only need be spayed and neutered and then live out happy lives with loving people.​

I have to ask where did the Queensland Puppy you are selling come from?
 

SouthernMdRocks

R.I.P. Bobo, We miss you!
happyappygirl said:
so what breed do you sell?

FWIW the Amish fellow i got my puggle from (YES I paid money for a mongeral) provided me with shot and worming records on him (surprise surprise). Unfortunately, this puppy has Mast cell cancer...i'm not sure what i'm going to do about that. He prolly won't live to see adulthood and he's only 8 months old. I'm "pretty sure" if i went back to him and told him, he'd give me another puppy...but i'm not sure if i want one.

How do you define a back yard breeder? Just curious.

Happy, so sorry to hear about your new pups situation. :huggy:
 

Cowgirl

Well-Known Member
krazd_kat said:
I can't believe as a COE breeder that you would ever even consider purchasing a dog from the Amish (let alone even purchasing a cross bred dog), who you could easily call either "Puppy Mills or Back Yard Breeders". I do not know of a single Amish breeder that has ever done all the proper testing to ensure well bred dogs. I will agree that probably 80% (depending on the breed), do not have any problems throughout their lives. But the other 20%, the new owners will deal with the $$ and the heartbreak of poorly bred dogs. Now before someone jumps me on the numbers, these are purely my own guestimates.

Krazd, as much as I agree with you on rescuing dogs, sometimes it is necessary to buy from a breeder, even an Amish one. My friends have sheep, and they needed a border collie, so they went to an amish farm and bought a pup. The dog is not registered, but it is purebred. In this case, they needed a dog to handle a specific duty on the farm. If they had rescued the dog, they wouldn't have known its background, what the parents were like, etc. They chose to buy a dog from an amish farm because it was a pup with working parents. A border collie breeder (even a COE one) probably would not have been able to provide a pup that could actually work on a farm. Sometimes breeders get so involved in the "show" animal, that they breed away from the working lines for which the dog was actually bred. Take a look at greyhounds...retired racers and AKC or WKC dogs look hardly anything alike.

So anyways, while I agree that most times it is better to rescue a dog, sometimes it is better to buy from a breeder.
 

krazd_kat

Help "Invisible Dogs"
Cowgirl said:
Krazd, as much as I agree with you on rescuing dogs, sometimes it is necessary to buy from a breeder, even an Amish one. My friends have sheep, and they needed a border collie, so they went to an amish farm and bought a pup. The dog is not registered, but it is purebred. In this case, they needed a dog to handle a specific duty on the farm. If they had rescued the dog, they wouldn't have known its background, what the parents were like, etc. They chose to buy a dog from an amish farm because it was a pup with working parents. A border collie breeder (even a COE one) probably would not have been able to provide a pup that could actually work on a farm. Sometimes breeders get so involved in the "show" animal, that they breed away from the working lines for which the dog was actually bred. Take a look at greyhounds...retired racers and AKC or WKC dogs look hardly anything alike.

So anyways, while I agree that most times it is better to rescue a dog, sometimes it is better to buy from a breeder.

Well, the majority of "Amish" are pure and simple Back Yard Breeders and anyone buying from them runs a risk purchasing one of their dogs. They do not pay any attention to what they are breeding. Yes, they probably have "working" dogs, but you can as easily get a working dog from a good breeder, you will pay more, no doubt, but you will be better assured of getting an animal w/less genetic health/temperment problems.

I agree that many times when you are looking for a dog for a "specific" purpose, you need to go to a breeder and not a rescue. The rescues are "full" of the BYB purebred dogs, dogs that are not suitable for what their breed is for. Most times, the traits they have the most of are the "undesirable" traits that are common in their breed, but they have it 10x worse (i.e. prey drive, attack any small animal).

The BYB's will also sell their dogs to ANYONE, without regard to what type of home it's going to. How many ads do we see daily, someone trying to rehome their dog, it's too hyper, needs more exercise, (to name only a few) these are traits that are common in the dog they bought, but not only did they not research their purchase, the "breeder" didn't care what type of home they would provide, all they wanted was the $$ in the bank.

Trust me, I have NOTHING against COE breeders. They have a definite place in society and in the pet population. It's the BYB's and the puppy mills that have no place in society and until everyone takes an interest and decides to take a stand, there will always be a need for rescue. Another thing you can trust me on, I look forward to the day rescue isn't needed and I don't have to try to educate hard headed people, or people looking for the cheapest dog - the day that I don't have to go take pictures of dogs on their last day, the night I can go to sleep not worrying about if the 10 yr old dog got adopted, or the 6 month old pitbull got rescued. (edited to add, the day I can go to the shelter and not cry because someone "dumped" their dog instead of paying the vet to fix the problems (genetic), or because they didn't have the "balls" to let that pet go gracefully and painfree) The day I can have only my "own" dogs.

(And before someone jumps on the above statement, yes, I could do that today, except my conscience won't let me.)
 
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