Jeter objects...

[Larry Gude]

...to the term 'steroid era' on the grounds that not everyone was using them. His logic; only 120 or so tested positive our of some 1,200 MLB players.

That's 10%. Actually got caught.

Derrick...

 

[Softballkid]

I know roids isn't the greatest thing for the game... But lets be honest for a second.. It's all about baseball, because THEY seem to be the only ones digging into this..

You can't even TRY to change my mind on the fact that football, hockey, basketball, and every other sport out there doesn't have their fair share of users.

Its kind of funny that players in all these sports have average years, nothing spectacular, then they hit that "I'm gonna be a free agent after this" and that year they put up ALL PRO numbers, get a HUGE check, and go back to average or a slight bit better than average...


As for the Jeter deal, I can agree, not ALL players have used roids, but you truely want to make the game legit, and this goes for ALL sports, no supplements AT ALL..I would allow protein, but that's it... no pain shots at halftime or in-between periods, etc.. Then see how much ALL these games change!

 

[Larry Gude]

I know roids isn't the greatest thing for the game... But lets be honest for a second..

Are we being honest, for real?

WHAT'S WRONG with players using steroids/HGH/Supplements etc and so forth?

Why is it OK for a guy to sacrifice his body playing a game for 10 adult years or so AND be all beat up and wore out but, he can't take stuff that helps him do it better, longer, faster and make more money while he's at it?

He may heal faster meaning less severe long term injuries from trying to play through an injury or come back too soon.

No one is using steroids to be able to bench 1,000 pounds yet not be able to even walk or brush his hair because his ligaments and bones broke in the process. Guys are using to help prevent injuries and to come back sooner.

If it is legal, then it won't be some MIT burnout cooking this crap up. It will be cleaner, safer, regulated and controlled. If we're up front about it then we can make rules and guidelines and, overall, have less problems AND the benefit of being honest about it and get rid of ALL the cynicism.

What do you think about that?

 

[Softballkid]

Are we being honest, for real?

WHAT'S WRONG with players using steroids/HGH/Supplements etc and so forth?

Why is it OK for a guy to sacrifice his body playing a game for 10 adult years or so AND be all beat up and wore out but, he can't take stuff that helps him do it better, longer, faster and make more money while he's at it?

He may heal faster meaning less severe long term injuries from trying to play through an injury or come back too soon.

No one is using steroids to be able to bench 1,000 pounds yet not be able to even walk or brush his hair because his ligaments and bones broke in the process. Guys are using to help prevent injuries and to come back sooner.

If it is legal, then it won't be some MIT burnout cooking this crap up. It will be cleaner, safer, regulated and controlled. If we're up front about it then we can make rules and guidelines and, overall, have less problems AND the benefit of being honest about it and get rid of ALL the cynicism.

What do you think about that?

I personally, have NO PROBLEMS with any supplements, to each their own, why fault someone for trying to stay ahead of the game, or be the best :shrug:

I know people who have taken roids, did I agree with it...for their purposes no, but I didn't fault them for trying it or using it to try and get results they were looking for..

BUT...I also do not agree with rule breaking in sports, if they say "you can't use it", then I don't believe you should. These guys get paid WAY to much money to be out here breaking rules... Though the flip side is "how do you make all that money, be better than the other guy".... So, it's a hard battle to argue for me, because I could stand on both sides of line and go with this


My only thing about making all those suppliments legal, where do you stop? Because you know if they pass roids, hgh, that the drug users (pot, coke, etc..) are going to come storming in behind them wanting the same :shrug:

 

[Larry Gude]

I
BUT...I also do not agree with rule breaking in sports, if they say "you can't use it", then I don't believe you should. These guys get paid WAY to much money to be out here breaking rules... Though the flip side is "how do you make all that money, be better than the other guy".... So, it's a hard battle to argue for me, because I could stand on both sides of line and go with this


My only thing about making all those suppliments legal, where do you stop? Because you know if they pass roids, hgh, that the drug users (pot, coke, etc..) are going to come storming in behind them wanting the same :shrug:

No rule breaking in baseball? No spitballs? No tar on bats? No stealing signs? Come on.

As for the money, that is WHY they do it; to get a job and to keep it. If you're hurt all the time or you're down 15 homers a year, you might be gone.

As for where to draw the line, as I say, if it is legal, then it is above board, controlled, safer, studied in an honest fashion, etc. Lines will appear as we learn more, not in basement labs, but in the light of day.

This is a good balance. That is not. This will hurt you long term, this won't.
This makes you stronger but slower. This makes you quicker but affects your timing. Etc, etc.

 

[thurley42]

Are we being honest, for real?

WHAT'S WRONG with players using steroids/HGH/Supplements etc and so forth?

Why is it OK for a guy to sacrifice his body playing a game for 10 adult years or so AND be all beat up and wore out but, he can't take stuff that helps him do it better, longer, faster and make more money while he's at it?

He may heal faster meaning less severe long term injuries from trying to play through an injury or come back too soon.

No one is using steroids to be able to bench 1,000 pounds yet not be able to even walk or brush his hair because his ligaments and bones broke in the process. Guys are using to help prevent injuries and to come back sooner.

If it is legal, then it won't be some MIT burnout cooking this crap up. It will be cleaner, safer, regulated and controlled. If we're up front about it then we can make rules and guidelines and, overall, have less problems AND the benefit of being honest about it and get rid of ALL the cynicism.

What do you think about that?

I'm 110% with you Larry. I've always felt that "performance enhancing" was one of the most abused, misused terms in all of athletics.

Jeter is IMO being a puppet for Selig and MLB in attempt to save face..he's one of the most recognizable faces in all of baseball, so it is up to him now that the mighty "Rod" has fallen to speak out against it.

I don't know what is more disgusting...the fact that Selig claimed ignorance and says he doesn't "want responsibility" (ESPN.com article..Tuesday timeframe) or the fact that there were exactly zero questions asked from MLB when Big Mac grew six sizes and went on the 98 HR race with Sosa, which IMO single handedly saved baseball from collapsing completely due to player owner strikes, money, etc.

As someone who has played baseball from age 5 through college (and football) I can say that steroids have been around me since middle school....let me clarify, I was around using high schoolers while i was in middle school, so i knew the deal so to speak.....Steroids, HGH, Test, and other PED's have been villianized much like marijuana in the 40's. Until more thourough studies have been done to truly gague the benefits/risks of these substances at low-mid doses there will be a unjust stigma around them labeling them all "bad". People will continue to get them illegally and abuse the dosages and suffer negative side effects....much the same way if i use large amounts of alcohol for an extended period of time my liver will shut down as well as a myriad of other negative results.

One last thought...i'm sick of how every time another athlete gets caught for steroids everyone acts like it is a complete shock. 120 people in ONE survey.....countless no name players have been busted on a regular basis since then as well as DOZENS of all star big name players....MLB has continue to bury its head in the sand and say it isn't their fault that the abuse is rampant in its organization....meanwhile the Legislative branch of our government has stepped in and used countless tax dollars on investigating and conveining insight commitees.....I think it's laughable that the multi billion dollar industry that is MLB hasn't had to foot this bill and let the burden fall on the same people who are feeding their wallets.

/rant

 

[Larry Gude]

I don't know what is more disgusting...the fact that Selig claimed ignorance and says he doesn't "want responsibility" (ESPN.com article..Tuesday timeframe) or the fact that there were exactly zero questions asked from MLB when Big Mac grew six sizes and went on the 98 HR race with Sosa, which IMO single handedly saved baseball from collapsing completely due to player owner strikes, money, etc.

OK, but that's THE problem, baseball figuring out an acceptable way to say what you and I are saying, right? Obviously, they know.



I wanted someone to ask A rod "So, what are you taking these days and how does it work compared to the old stuff?"

"Nothing!"

"You said that before. Aren't you and others just taking something undetectable at this time?"

 

[thurley42]

No rule breaking in baseball? No spitballs? No tar on bats? No stealing signs? Come on.

As for the money, that is WHY they do it; to get a job and to keep it. If you're hurt all the time or you're down 15 homers a year, you might be gone.

As for where to draw the line, as I say, if it is legal, then it is above board, controlled, safer, studied in an honest fashion, etc. Lines will appear as we learn more, not in basement labs, but in the light of day.

This is a good balance. That is not. This will hurt you long term, this won't.
This makes you stronger but slower. This makes you quicker but affects your timing. Etc, etc.

I don't want to be the "matter of fact" police...but taking ibuprofen after pitching a complete game is technically performance enhancing...you gotta let that crap heal on it's own!

Larry is right...you have to do the studies, get the no BS data and make a limitation, draw a line...they have failed to do it....at the very least once you establish the standard of what they will and will not tolerate you have something to go by...

Gaylord Perry, one of the greatest Indians (Go Tribe) of all time was a HOOOOOOOOOGE cheater, the only thing more loaded in baseball than Babe Ruth was one of Perry's balls...Cheating has always been a part of baseball....and always will be....does it make it right? no...but the climate has been there through history....so don't make such a big deal out of it and say the "numbers are tainted" show me some numbers throughout history that aren't.....

 

[Softballkid]

No rule breaking in baseball? No spitballs? No tar on bats? No stealing signs? Come on.

As for the money, that is WHY they do it; to get a job and to keep it. If you're hurt all the time or you're down 15 homers a year, you might be gone.

As for where to draw the line, as I say, if it is legal, then it is above board, controlled, safer, studied in an honest fashion, etc. Lines will appear as we learn more, not in basement labs, but in the light of day.

This is a good balance. That is not. This will hurt you long term, this won't.
This makes you stronger but slower. This makes you quicker but affects your timing. Etc, etc.

It's almost un-american ins't it

I understand where your coming from, like I said, I could stand on both sides of this and go either way...

But let's take yours a step farther... You use all these suppliments (now) when they are not legal, does anyone really know the after effects? Is this something you will have to continue to use the rest of your life? When your out of the game, and 10 years later, will you have the for not being on it anymore? There are a lot of ways to go about this, arguing either side...and I don't thin ki can really pick one right now

I kind of wonder why the we haven't looked more into roids/hgh due to the fact SO MANY people use it now...

 

[thurley42]

OK, but that's THE problem, baseball figuring out an acceptable way to say what you and I are saying, right? Obviously, they know.



I wanted someone to ask A rod "So, what are you taking these days and how does it work compared to the old stuff?"

"Nothing!"

"You said that before. Aren't you and others just taking something undetectable at this time?"

Right...how hypocritical is it of MLB...they make the players (Clemens, A-Rod, Petitite, Palmeiro) have press conferences and own up to what they did...why hasn't Selig and the owners stood up and said..."well yeah we knew it was going on..to what extent, we didn't know for sure, but had an estimation...the facts are that we were struggling with ticket and merchandise sales and when people started jacking the ball out of the park 5-6 times a game sales went through the roof...it was GREAT for business..."

 

[Larry Gude]

I kind of wonder why the we haven't looked more into roids/hgh due to the fact SO MANY people use it now...

Americans are, at heart, a Victorian people, good or bad; appearances are more important than the truth, we worry about how things look as opposed to how they are.

Abortion, illegal drugs, politics...