Just 10

[seekeroftruth]

Genesis 18:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”​

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20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”​

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22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”​

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26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”​

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27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”​

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“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”​

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29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”​

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He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”​

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30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”​

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He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”​

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31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”​

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He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”​

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32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”​

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He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”​

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33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.​

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Here's the link to the commentary.

The men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD: We see the two men were actually the angels who visited Sodom in Genesis 19. The third person in the party was actually the LORD Himself.​

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And Abraham came near: Abraham came near to the LORD. Effective intercession is a matter of drawing near to God so we can pray with His heart.​

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Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked: In discussing this question, in a sense, Abraham reminded the LORD of His own nature and principles (shall not the Judge of all the earth do right). Abraham thought that God, as a righteous Judge, could not and would not punish the innocent in the same way as the guilty.​

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Abraham returned to his place: We wonder if Abraham should not have continued the negotiations because there were only four righteous in the city. Would God have spared the city for four if Abraham had asked? Perhaps Abraham felt Lot would surely have brought six people beyond his own family to God in his time in Sodom.​

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First of all, I stand corrected. I said I didn't think Jesus was one of the three men. The world "lord" can be used for humans too. It seems the "Lord" in these verses may be Jesus.... then again... it might actually the leader of the three men. I will concede it is possible Jesus was making an earth visit.... I apologize if I led anyone astray. I'm just an ignorant old woman trying to keep myself in the Word.

Now on to the verses.

Abraham started bargaining with the "Lord". He started at 50 people. Would they consider calling off the slaughter in order to save those 50 people? Would Abraham's plan be that the 50 would lead the others to worshipping God?

When the strangers accepted the number 50, poor Abraham got to thinking about Sodom and how bad it was... and he figured he should negotiate lower... after all, his nephew was in Sodom... and his nephew's family.... and his nephew's friends and their friends and family... and so on and so forth. So, he bargained some more.... and got the number down to 10.

Abraham must have thought through the numbers, the size of Lot's family and his slaves should number more than ten people, right? Would the men save Sodom for the sake of Lot and nine other "righteous" humans? The "Lord" agreed.

Abraham would have saved the lives of all those who lived in Sodom.... if Lot could count 9 from amongst family, friends, or slaves who were righteous.....

Do you know 9 righteous people? [Assuming you are righteous, that is.]

I guess if this were a children's story.... "The Count" from Sesame Street would play the part of Abraham, right?

But it was much too serious for a children's story. For the sake of ten humans, Abraham made a deal to save the whole city.

The fate of Sodom, reminds me of current events.

Should all of Gaza be destroyed because Hamas is hiding there after attacking Israel and taking hostages?

Does God approve? Did He send angels to count the righteous? How many humans heard the negotiations between Abraham and the men? Did anyone negotiate for the lives of the people of Gaza? In one day... October 7th.... the world turned upside down. Was there a way to negotiate the upheaval? Did Hamas try to negotiate? Why did Hamas take those hostages? Why did Hamas attack and kill so many people? Why won't Hamas return the hostages so a cease fire can begin? Why don't the Palestinians turn Hamas over to Israel? Should Israel just forget all about the hostages and call everything off, because enough people have lost their lives? Is the world to stay upside down?

When Abraham went back to his home.... Did he worry over not trying to save the city for five people? Did he try to call out to the "Lord" and negotiate further? Did he consider sending a swift messenger to warn Lot? I bet he just thought he had done his best, surely Lot knows ten righteous people.

Lot could have saved the whole city of Sodom.... if he could count himself and nine other humans as righteous.

Just 10.... That's all they needed. There weren't even 10 righteous people in the whole town?

Just 10!

 

[vraiblonde]

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Just 10.... That's all they needed. There weren't even 10 righteous people in the whole town?

And yet somehow Noah made the cut..... So like, how bad were people back then? Yikes.

Anyway...

Should all of Gaza be destroyed because Hamas is hiding there after attacking Israel and taking hostages?

Does God approve? Did He send angels to count the righteous? How many humans heard the negotiations between Abraham and the men? Did anyone negotiate for the lives of the people of Gaza? In one day... October 7th.... the world turned upside down. Was there a way to negotiate the upheaval? Did Hamas try to negotiate? Why did Hamas take those hostages? Why did Hamas attack and kill so many people? Why won't Hamas return the hostages so a cease fire can begin? Why don't the Palestinians turn Hamas over to Israel? Should Israel just forget all about the hostages and call everything off, because enough people have lost their lives? Is the world to stay upside down?

I'm going to respond to this as if you're asking real questions instead of being rhetorical.

The problem with people who aren't interested in history and don't follow the news because it's too depressing is that they don't know what's going on and why.

Islamic terrorism has been a thing since forever. It's baked into their religion. Liberals keep trying to convince us that it's not, and yet time after time Muslims prove that as fact. So I'm going to go with what Muslims show and tell us rather than the liberal Democrat interpretation and excuse making.

Wars have been fought throughout history over religion. They are too numerous to count. In the modern day we've gotten past that, largely, and are content to live and let live. Muslims never got that memo - they are still trying to kill and conquer anyone who doesn't submit to Islam. They wage literal war amongst themselves over minor religious divergences.

There are specifics and incidents, but it boils down to this: Fundie Muslims want to kill anyone who isn't Muslim. There is nothing that will make them happy, short of every single human on the planet converting to Islam and worshiping exactly the way they say. They say it flat out, and show it repeatedly. Not sure why there are still people in this world who don't believe them.



Now does that mean ALL Muslims are murderous aholes? Of course not. But what the leadership is, that's what the whole thing is. When "moderate" Muslims don't speak out against their extreme brethren and condemn the violence, they are complicit as well. It's the same with every group one might belong to - you might be a good guy, but if you are a member of say the KKK, you are one of them and you suck, and that overrules everything else about you. You personally may not have sex with children, but if you are a member of NAMBLA you are still a pedophile and child sex trafficker.

That's how it works. You don't get to be a member of a group comprised of terrible people, then claim you aren't a terrible person.

 

[vraiblonde]

And let's talk about atheists, who are the fundie Muslims of the secular world. They think Christians are hurting them, even though there is no evidence of that.

It happens that I don't believe in God, for a variety of reasons. But quite simply I flat don't believe in a divine power that created everything and blah blah blah. Yet I hesitate to call myself an atheist because of the most vocal of the lot - they are nuts and combative and unnecessarily provocative, and I hate that. I don't want to be associated with them, yet I can't pretend I believe in a deity when I don't. So that's a dilemma.

The difference between me and "moderate" Muslims is that I never hesitate to call out some dipshit atheist acting like a jerk. I'll be the first to set them down and make it clear I am not one of them. Also there's a difference between "believing in" something and "not believing in" something. I don't believe in Santa Claus; Hitler also didn't believe in Santa Claus; but Hitler and I are not the same. When you *do* believe in something, and the majority of people who also believe in that thing are a pack of aholes, it's time or you to examine why you believe that thing.

This is also my problem with US politics, and global politics in general. When the elected leadership of a group - people elected to lead and speak for the group - are a pack of aholes, all members of the group are aholes as well. That's exactly why I dumped the GOP - when they chose an abhorrent revolting ahole as their leader and representative, I didn't want to be associated with them.

And I'm talking about John McCain, not Donald Trump. I don't find Trump abhorrent. I find the media's treatment of him abhorrent, and all the jackals going after him are the worst people on earth, but I'm very comfortable being associated with Trump and electing him to lead. Other people feel differently, mainly because they've been instructed by *their* chosen group to wage war against the enemy, but whatever - it is what it is.

The persecution of Trump is very similar to the persecution of Jesus. Relax, people, I'm not saying that Trump is Jesus. I'm saying that the persecution is pretty much the same. So here we are in the modern day, acting like savages just like humans have done since they were invented, only now it's over politics instead of religion.

And now I'm just rambling on, but the subject of human behavior fascinates me, group behavior in particular. I thought about deleting all this because it has little to do with the original subject, but.....eh....people can ignore it if they want.

 

[seekeroftruth]

And yet somehow Noah made the cut..... So like, how bad were people back then? Yikes.

Anyway...



I'm going to respond to this as if you're asking real questions instead of being rhetorical.

The problem with people who aren't interested in history and don't follow the news because it's too depressing is that they don't know what's going on and why.

Islamic terrorism has been a thing since forever. It's baked into their religion. Liberals keep trying to convince us that it's not, and yet time after time Muslims prove that as fact. So I'm going to go with what Muslims show and tell us rather than the liberal Democrat interpretation and excuse making.

Wars have been fought throughout history over religion. They are too numerous to count. In the modern day we've gotten past that, largely, and are content to live and let live. Muslims never got that memo - they are still trying to kill and conquer anyone who doesn't submit to Islam. They wage literal war amongst themselves over minor religious divergences.

There are specifics and incidents, but it boils down to this: Fundie Muslims want to kill anyone who isn't Muslim. There is nothing that will make them happy, short of every single human on the planet converting to Islam and worshiping exactly the way they say. They say it flat out, and show it repeatedly. Not sure why there are still people in this world who don't believe them.



Now does that mean ALL Muslims are murderous aholes? Of course not. But what the leadership is, that's what the whole thing is. When "moderate" Muslims don't speak out against their extreme brethren and condemn the violence, they are complicit as well. It's the same with every group one might belong to - you might be a good guy, but if you are a member of say the KKK, you are one of them and you suck, and that overrules everything else about you. You personally may not have sex with children, but if you are a member of NAMBLA you are still a pedophile and child sex trafficker.

That's how it works. You don't get to be a member of a group comprised of terrible people, then claim you aren't a terrible person.

Oh, what a perfect response!

And the father of ALL Muslims.... Ishmael! That bastard son of Abram... and Hagar. We just read about him... Ishmael is Muslim... Isaac is Jew...

Genesis 16:12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;​

his hand will be against everyone​

and everyone’s hand against him,​

and he will live in hostility​

toward all his brothers.”​

I don't know how Noah made the cut either... but because he was "the best" God had to work with.... it's a wonder God didn't just create a new top of the food chain species. But He didn't... and we are stuck with the results of Noah and his three sons. Now Ishmael and Isaac are heaped into the pile of humans out to bring insanity.

Abram [Abraham] fathered both the Muslims and the Jews.... and it's recorded in the Bible.

And preachers don't preach the truth... They twist it to make it easy to take! A spoon full of sugar????

 

[seekeroftruth]

And let's talk about atheists, who are the fundie Muslims of the secular world. They think Christians are hurting them, even though there is no evidence of that.

It happens that I don't believe in God, for a variety of reasons. But quite simply I flat don't believe in a divine power that created everything and blah blah blah. Yet I hesitate to call myself an atheist because of the most vocal of the lot - they are nuts and combative and unnecessarily provocative, and I hate that. I don't want to be associated with them, yet I can't pretend I believe in a deity when I don't. So that's a dilemma.

The difference between me and "moderate" Muslims is that I never hesitate to call out some dipshit atheist acting like a jerk. I'll be the first to set them down and make it clear I am not one of them. Also there's a difference between "believing in" something and "not believing in" something. I don't believe in Santa Claus; Hitler also didn't believe in Santa Claus; but Hitler and I are not the same. When you *do* believe in something, and the majority of people who also believe in that thing are a pack of aholes, it's time or you to examine why you believe that thing.

This is also my problem with US politics, and global politics in general. When the elected leadership of a group - people elected to lead and speak for the group - are a pack of aholes, all members of the group are aholes as well. That's exactly why I dumped the GOP - when they chose an abhorrent revolting ahole as their leader and representative, I didn't want to be associated with them.

And I'm talking about John McCain, not Donald Trump. I don't find Trump abhorrent. I find the media's treatment of him abhorrent, and all the jackals going after him are the worst people on earth, but I'm very comfortable being associated with Trump and electing him to lead. Other people feel differently, mainly because they've been instructed by *their* chosen group to wage war against the enemy, but whatever - it is what it is.

The persecution of Trump is very similar to the persecution of Jesus. Relax, people, I'm not saying that Trump is Jesus. I'm saying that the persecution is pretty much the same. So here we are in the modern day, acting like savages just like humans have done since they were invented, only now it's over politics instead of religion.

And now I'm just rambling on, but the subject of human behavior fascinates me, group behavior in particular. I thought about deleting all this because it has little to do with the original subject, but.....eh....people can ignore it if they want.

I think it has everything to do with it.

I've been a Christian for over 70 years. I was raised to think Christianity is the only religion. I was raised to think if you aren't a Bible Thumping Christian... then you were going straight to Hades. So, I've changed a lot... because I've been posting here in these forums. I used to think posting here every day would bring someone to Christ. Now I do it so I can see just how much damage the church has done to the truth and how I live my life.

I was raised to hate all Jews because they hung Jesus on a cross... and all Muslims because they don't believe in Jesus. Now I know the people who were teaching me all that crap were the kind of people who would hold their Bibles upside down standing in front of the church. They don't have a clue what's really in there.

I am still a Christian... only wiser.

Problem is... I don't trust "religion" anymore. Does that make me an atheist? Nope... I still believe God created everything. I still believe He sent His only "begotten" son to try to put some better DNA and more workable Commandments into the human experience.

I don't know if I would count as "righteous". I don't know if I know 9 "righteous" people. I don't know if I know 9 "righteous" family members.

I don't know if I could save Sodom. I think I would have sent a swift messenger to warn Lot.

Abraham is the father of both the Jews and the Muslims.

 

[vraiblonde]

Problem is... I don't trust "religion" anymore.

Religion is a social construct.

"I believe this thing."
"Hey! Me too! Let's form a club and get some other people to join!"
BOOM! Religion.

"And OBTW you can't be a member unless you think *exactly* like we do."

"Oh, and also if you *don't* think exactly like we do, we're going to kill you."

Religion fascinates me, much the same as I'm fascinated by politics. Anything created by men to pit humans against each other is interesting to me. Because it's like....why? Why not just live and let live? Mind your own business? Quit being an ahole?

But humans don't do that. They either want to join a club or want you to join their club, and then they want to hate on people in other clubs. Redskins fans vs. Cowboys fans. There is no sensible reason for it, but I personally know Redskins fans who HATE the Cowboys and will start a literal bar fight with a Cowboys fan.

Which is another reason why I reject the notion of intelligent design. Too many of us have a bug in the system. Unless God designed us to be this way, in which case you have to ask why He would do that because there seems to be no reasonable rationale.