Just a thought.....

T

toppick08

Guest
Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

libby

New Member
Hmmm...toppick, I see Paul's words, but what is your thought? All that Paul said is true, nothing external, nothing can force Him from us. However, we can separate ourselves from Jesus.
 
T

toppick08

Guest
Hmmm...toppick, I see Paul's words, but what is your thought? All that Paul said is true, nothing external, nothing can force Him from us. However, we can separate ourselves from Jesus.

I know, just a Sunday thought..........:huggy:

God Bless.
 

djenkins13

New Member
Hmmm...toppick, I see Paul's words, but what is your thought? All that Paul said is true, nothing external, nothing can force Him from us. However, we can separate ourselves from Jesus.

Care to elaborate on the meaning of "separate"?
 

libby

New Member
Care to elaborate on the meaning of "separate"?

Sure, I believe that we have free will, and can always choose to walk away from the love of Christ. There Scriptures tell us that no one [else] can separate us from Jesus, and I am in 100% agreement with that; however, I've seen many people "accept Christ as their Lord and Savior", but eventually turn away again because things got tough in life.
So, bottom line is that we have free will to know, love and serve Christ, or not.
 

djenkins13

New Member
Sure, I believe that we have free will, and can always choose to walk away from the love of Christ. There Scriptures tell us that no one [else] can separate us from Jesus, and I am in 100% agreement with that; however, I've seen many people "accept Christ as their Lord and Savior", but eventually turn away again because things got tough in life.
So, bottom line is that we have free will to know, love and serve Christ, or not.

My Bible leaves out that whole "else" word. I am confused. Are you saying that you cannot LOSE your salvation, but you CAN give it back, and therefore go to hell, even AFTER accepting Christ? And if this is true, can you provide biblical references? I have had this discussion with some people and it has never been satisfactorily explained to me. Thanks.
 

libby

New Member
I'll start with

My Bible leaves out that whole "else" word. I am confused. Are you saying that you cannot LOSE your salvation, but you CAN give it back, and therefore go to hell, even AFTER accepting Christ? And if this is true, can you provide biblical references? I have had this discussion with some people and it has never been satisfactorily explained to me. Thanks.

In case you have not read any other of my posts, I will start right off telling you that I am Catholic, and fully confident and fairly learned in the teachings of the Church. Therefore, I will preface with a brief explanation of how we "lose" our salvation. It is a matter of willfully and knowingly rejecting God's commands. For instance, I know adultery is a sin, but I'm so enthralled and hot for a guy at work that I willfully decide to have an affair, knowing full well that God's command is that "You shall not commit adultery". Does that mean I cannot repent later? No, and if I do, I will be forgiven, but if I do not repent and remain determined to do my will instead of God's, then yes, I would [likely] find myself spending eternity in hell.
In the conversations I've had with Bible Christians, I get different answers, so I will not presume to know your beliefs; suffice to say that none of us knows what we may do in the future, so we cannot literally "know" we are saved.

Let's begin with Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well. Rom. 11:17-24. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21.
The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).
Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
"Are you saved?" Bible Christians may ask. My reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Credit for some of this to Karl Keating.
 
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djenkins13

New Member
In case you have not read any other of my posts, I will start right off telling you that I am Catholic, and fully confident and fairly learned in the teachings of the Church. Therefore, I will preface with a brief explanation of how we "lose" our salvation. It is a matter of willfully and knowingly rejecting God's commands. For instance, I know adultery is a sin, but I'm so enthralled and hot for a guy at work that I willfully decide to have an affair, knowing full well that God's command is that "You shall not commit adultery". Does that mean I cannot repent later? No, and if I do, I will be forgiven, but if I do not repent and remain determined to do my will instead of God's, then yes, I would [likely] find myself spending eternity in hell.
In the conversations I've had with Bible Christians, I get different answers, so I will not presume to know your beliefs; suffice to say that none of us knows what we may do in the future, so we cannot literally "know" we are saved.

Let's begin with Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well. Rom. 11:17-24. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21.
The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).
Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
"Are you saved?" Bible Christians may ask. My reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Credit for some of this to Karl Keating.

So Billy Graham may be going to hell? Or Charles Stanley? Or, since you are Catholic, the Pope or even Mother theresa?

Please explain to me how someone gets to heaven then. If there is absolutely no assurance of salvation, why do we even need it?
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
So Billy Graham may be going to hell? Or Charles Stanley? Or, since you are Catholic, the Pope or even Mother theresa?

Please explain to me how someone gets to heaven then. If there is absolutely no assurance of salvation, why do we even need it?

You're asking a mere mortal, just like you and me - questions like these?

WE don't have the answers to those posits. The Man Upstairs has them. You'll find out about them, seconds after you leave this realm of existance, and pass on to another one.

Bottom line is: WE don't make those calls - HE does. Our Faith in Him is all we have, that we have followed His Plan, the best we could, during our lives.

He will let us know, when the time comes.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Please explain to me how someone gets to heaven then. If there is absolutely no assurance of salvation, why do we even need it?
I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question. It sounds very much like "If there is absolutely no assurance of happiness in marriage, why do we even get married?", or, "If there is absolutely no assurance of pay raises and promotions, why do we need to act professionally?"

Am I misunderstanding the generic thought process, or did you not realize you were saying this type of thing?
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question. It sounds very much like "If there is absolutely no assurance of happiness in marriage, why do we even get married?", or, "If there is absolutely no assurance of pay raises and promotions, why do we need to act professionally?"

Am I misunderstanding the generic thought process, or did you not realize you were saying this type of thing?

IF you have acted in a professional manner, while performing your assigned tasks at work, all things being considered, you'll more than likely receive a pay raise.

In the same context, if you believe in the Lord God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus did walk this earth, and died for us, and as I said earlier, "tried to follow His Plan, the best you could" - I'd offer that your chances of making it to Heaven are on the plus side. Still, I don't have the final call on that one; none of us here on this earth does. JMHO.
 

libby

New Member
So Billy Graham may be going to hell? Or Charles Stanley? Or, since you are Catholic, the Pope or even Mother theresa?

Please explain to me how someone gets to heaven then. If there is absolutely no assurance of salvation, why do we even need it?

Not unlike djenkins has said, I have no way of knowing if any one of those individuals will go to Heaven. They all appear to be the best of mankind, so if I were a betting person, I would say that they are all enjoying the Presence of the Lord, however, I am not aware of their inmost struggles or sins.
If we persevere until the end (and only God will know that) then we are saved. If we sincerely repent at the end of our days, we are saved. If we warm the pew at our church, and make no effort to do the Will of God day to day, I would venture to say we are not saved. Going through the motions does not make one a Christian, but becoming more Christ-like, is.
So, do you think that once someone is "saved" that they cannot fall away? Self-professed Christians commit crimes, whether they be Bible Christians or Catholic priests; do you think that because they claim Jesus as Lord and Savior that those sins are irrelevant?
 

libby

New Member
IF you have acted in a professional manner, while performing your assigned tasks at work, all things being considered, you'll more than likely receive a pay raise.

In the same context, if you believe in the Lord God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus did walk this earth, and died for us, and as I said earlier, "tried to follow His Plan, the best you could" - I'd offer that your chances of making it to Heaven are on the plus side. Still, I don't have the final call on that one; none of us here on this earth does. JMHO.

:yeahthat:
 

djenkins13

New Member
I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question. It sounds very much like "If there is absolutely no assurance of happiness in marriage, why do we even get married?", or, "If there is absolutely no assurance of pay raises and promotions, why do we need to act professionally?"

Am I misunderstanding the generic thought process, or did you not realize you were saying this type of thing?

A pay raise and a happy marriage are small things compared to my eternal salvation. I live for Christ because I WANT to because of what He has done for me. I don't live for Him "hoping" to get to heaven in the end. I believe with all I have that I am going to heaven when I die. But if there is no assurance, like it seems everyone is saying, then why not live for myself, get all I can, and then when I am done "find" God. It just doesn't make sense to me. But lately I have encountered quite a few people who believe you can lose your salvation and I have always been taught you cannot. I am seeking biblical advice either way.

Thank you
 

libby

New Member
A pay raise and a happy marriage are small things compared to my eternal salvation. I live for Christ because I WANT to because of what He has done for me. I don't live for Him "hoping" to get to heaven in the end. I believe with all I have that I am going to heaven when I die. But if there is no assurance, like it seems everyone is saying, then why not live for myself, get all I can, and then when I am done "find" God. It just doesn't make sense to me. But lately I have encountered quite a few people who believe you can lose your salvation and I have always been taught you cannot. I am seeking biblical advice either way.

Thank you

I do not believe, and my church does not teach, that you can accidentally or incidentally lose your salvation. You must make the choice knowing full well that you are doing it. Based on your description of yourself, my guess is you're just fine. But, I just ask you to consider what you might to or feel under what-you-consider the most difficult circumstances. For me, the most unimaginable tragedy would be something like losing all of my children. It's happened to others, so it's always possible. Would my faith sustain me?
I hope so, but I also believe that it's possible (although not probable) that I would turn my back on God in my despair. Okay, so in the immediate aftermath I feel God would be soo merciful, but at some point I would have to make the choice to return to God's loving arms, or leave Him completely. What if I leave Him completely and never go back?
 

djenkins13

New Member
I do not believe, and my church does not teach, that you can accidentally or incidentally lose your salvation. You must make the choice knowing full well that you are doing it. Based on your description of yourself, my guess is you're just fine. But, I just ask you to consider what you might to or feel under what-you-consider the most difficult circumstances. For me, the most unimaginable tragedy would be something like losing all of my children. It's happened to others, so it's always possible. Would my faith sustain me?
I hope so, but I also believe that it's possible (although not probable) that I would turn my back on God in my despair. Okay, so in the immediate aftermath I feel God would be soo merciful, but at some point I would have to make the choice to return to God's loving arms, or leave Him completely. What if I leave Him completely and never go back?

Good question. But I would have to say that if I am truly God's child, I never STOP being His child. If something makes me turn my back on Him, was I ever REALLY His child to begin with? It would be like getting angry at my dad for something I perceive he did. If I die without having reconciled with him, does that make me any less his son? Wouldn't the same apply to God, since I am His adopted son? And I ask because I have a genuine desire to KNOW the answer. I have had pastors tell me you can lose your salvation... I have had some tell me you need to be saved DAILY.... neither one jibes with what I have been taught so I want to know if I was taught incorrectly, if I misunderstood, or if there is something else to know. I have NO DESIRE to go to hell.
 

libby

New Member
Good question. But I would have to say that if I am truly God's child, I never STOP being His child. If something makes me turn my back on Him, was I ever REALLY His child to begin with? It would be like getting angry at my dad for something I perceive he did. If I die without having reconciled with him, does that make me any less his son? Wouldn't the same apply to God, since I am His adopted son? And I ask because I have a genuine desire to KNOW the answer. I have had pastors tell me you can lose your salvation... I have had some tell me you need to be saved DAILY.... neither one jibes with what I have been taught so I want to know if I was taught incorrectly, if I misunderstood, or if there is something else to know. I have NO DESIRE to go to hell.

I can only answer as a Catholic, so some of my words may or may not be familiar to you.
St. John tells us, "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly." (1 John 5:16-17)
This is one place where we see that there is a difference in sin. All sin is bad in the eyes of an all perfect God; however, he knows our fallen nature and free will. There can be no question that if men recognize the differences in sin, then so does God. Would you put losing your patience on the same level of severity as adultery, rape or murder? The former is usually a result of our imperfect nature, and we must try to become better, but the latter is a willful choice to evil, premeditated, if you will.
Let's try a your father/son example, but add to it. It's not just getting angry. Like the prodigal son, you left your father's house; what if you die before you ever return?
Did you desire to reconcile, or did you remain stubbornly and willfully in your defiance? God knows your heart, if you desire Him, I doubt you'll have to worry about hell, no matter what your denomination. Keep pursuing Him in all of His Glory, and do not become complacent.
Catholics know when they are "in the state of Grace". That is, I commit small (venial) sins every day, but I have not willfully chosen to defy Him, it's just a result of my fallen nature. I do have to try to grow in virtue every day, though. Anyway, Catholics also know if they are not "in a state of grace". If a Catholic is at risk of losing salvation s/he must commit a mortal sin. To commit a mortal sin there are three factors that must be present. 1- It must be a grave matter, i.e. adultery. 2- S/he must know it is a grave sin, and 3- S/he does it anyway, with full consent of the will.
For a person who loves God and is sincere in their faith, these three conditions are not really met too often.
A Catholic girl might have an abortion (grave matter) but she might not know, at age 16, what a big deal it is, so condition #2 is not met. Maybe she was pressured by boyfriend or parents, therefore condition #3 is not met. Therefore, the objective sin is mortal, but her culpability for it is diminished, or perhaps non-existent.
Only God knows all of the mitigating or aggravating factors behind what we do, and only He can judge us perfectly with all of that in mind, but this is a quick synopsis of how Catholic theology defines what is written in Scriptures. I'm sure you'll get others on here with different interpretations.
 

Bavarian

New Member
I can only answer as a Catholic, so some of my words may or may not be familiar to you.
St. John tells us, "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly." (1 John 5:16-17)
This is one place where we see that there is a difference in sin. All sin is bad in the eyes of an all perfect God; however, he knows our fallen nature and free will. There can be no question that if men recognize the differences in sin, then so does God. Would you put losing your patience on the same level of severity as adultery, rape or murder? The former is usually a result of our imperfect nature, and we must try to become better, but the latter is a willful choice to evil, premeditated, if you will.
Let's try a your father/son example, but add to it. It's not just getting angry. Like the prodigal son, you left your father's house; what if you die before you ever return?
Did you desire to reconcile, or did you remain stubbornly and willfully in your defiance? God knows your heart, if you desire Him, I doubt you'll have to worry about hell, no matter what your denomination. Keep pursuing Him in all of His Glory, and do not become complacent.
Catholics know when they are "in the state of Grace". That is, I commit small (venial) sins every day, but I have not willfully chosen to defy Him, it's just a result of my fallen nature. I do have to try to grow in virtue every day, though. Anyway, Catholics also know if they are not "in a state of grace". If a Catholic is at risk of losing salvation s/he must commit a mortal sin. To commit a mortal sin there are three factors that must be present. 1- It must be a grave matter, i.e. adultery. 2- S/he must know it is a grave sin, and 3- S/he does it anyway, with full consent of the will.
For a person who loves God and is sincere in their faith, these three conditions are not really met too often.
A Catholic girl might have an abortion (grave matter) but she might not know, at age 16, what a big deal it is, so condition #2 is not met. Maybe she was pressured by boyfriend or parents, therefore condition #3 is not met. Therefore, the objective sin is mortal, but her culpability for it is diminished, or perhaps non-existent.
Only God knows all of the mitigating or aggravating factors behind what we do, and only He can judge us perfectly with all of that in mind, but this is a quick synopsis of how Catholic theology defines what is written in Scriptures. I'm sure you'll get others on here with different interpretations.

That is what the Sacrament of Confession is for. Unfortunately, not too many people make use of this precious gift from God. Not only do you receive pardon for your sins, but a priest will help you mend your life.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
A pay raise and a happy marriage are small things compared to my eternal salvation.
I wasn't comparing the results, I was comparing the thought process.
I live for Christ because I WANT to because of what He has done for me. I don't live for Him "hoping" to get to heaven in the end. I believe with all I have that I am going to heaven when I die. But if there is no assurance, like it seems everyone is saying, then why not live for myself, get all I can, and then when I am done "find" God.
If you're living for Christ because you want to glorify Him through your life, then whether you will go to Heaven or not would have no bearing on how you act. You wouldn't live for yourself, get all you can, and then when you're done cynically "find" God at that point - that would be dishonest and the exact opposite of actually living your life to glorify God.
It just doesn't make sense to me. But lately I have encountered quite a few people who believe you can lose your salvation and I have always been taught you cannot. I am seeking biblical advice either way.

Thank you
You can lose it up to the end, just like you can gain it up to the end, IMO.
 

libby

New Member
That is what the Sacrament of Confession is for. Unfortunately, not too many people make use of this precious gift from God. Not only do you receive pardon for your sins, but a priest will help you mend your life.

I love that Sacrament! God made us material beings, so He knows how comforting it is to hear those words of forgiveness. He is ssoooo good!
 
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