Ludwig von Mises - Austrian School [This Should be Fun]

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
This vital 1951 essay on economic intervention demolishes ‘dictatorial,’ ‘anti-democratic’ progressivism


Ludwig von Mises, a leader of the free market Austrian School of Economics, wrote perhaps most passionately about his aversion to socialism and reverence for capitalism having witnessed the rise of the Nazis in Germany, and consequently fleeing to America.

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Many advocates of interventionism are bewildered when one tells them that in recommending interventionism they themselves are fostering anti-democratic and dictatorial tendencies and the establishment of totalitarian socialism. They protest that they are sincere believers and opposed to tyranny and socialism. What they aim at is only the improvement of the conditions of the poor. They say that they are driven by considerations of social justice, and favour a fairer distribution of income precisely because they are intent upon preserving capitalism and its political corollary or superstructure, viz., democratic government.

What these people fail to realize is that the various measures they suggest are not capable of bringing about the beneficial results aimed at. On the contrary they produce a state of affairs which from the point of view of their advocates is worse than the previous state which they were designed to alter. If the government, faced with this failure of its first intervention, is not prepared to undo its interference with the market and to return to a free economy, it must add to its first measure more and more regulations and restrictions. Proceeding step by step on this way it finally reaches a point in which all economic freedom of individuals has disappeared. Then socialism of the German pattern, the Zwangswirtschaft of the Nazis, emerges.

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But when this state of all-round control of business is achieved, the market economy has been replaced by a system of planned economy, by socialism. Of course, this is not the socialism of immediate state management of every plant by the government as in Russia, but the socialism of the German or Nazi pattern.


This system of government control contrasts with the democratic free market in which the people are sovereign:

In the market economy the consumers are supreme. Their buying and their abstention from buying ultimately determine what the entrepreneurs produce and in what quantity and quality. It determines directly the prices of the consumers’ goods and indirectly the prices of all producers’ goods, viz., labour and material factors of production. It determines the emergence of profits and losses and the formation of the rate of interest. It determines every individual’s income. The focal point of the market economy is the market, i.e., the process of the formation of commodity prices, wage rates and interest rates and their derivatives, profits and losses. It makes all men in their capacity as producers responsible to the consumers. This dependence is direct with entrepreneurs, capitalists, farmers and professional men, and indirect with people working for salaries and wages. The market adjusts the efforts of all those engaged in supplying the needs of the consumers to the wishes of those for whom they produce, the consumers. It subjects production to consumption.

The consumers have made their choices and determined the income of the shoe manufacturer, the movie star and the welder. Who is Professor X to arrogate to himself the privilege of overthrowing their decision? If he were not a potential dictator, he would not ask the government to interfere. He would try to persuade his fellow-citizens to increase their demand for the products of the welders and to reduce their demand for shoes and pictures.

…But what shall we think of the statesman who interferes by compulsion in order to raise the price of cotton above the level it would reach on the free market? What the interventionist aims at is the substitution of police pressure for the choice of the consumers. All this talk: the state should do this or that, ultimately means: the police should force consumers to behave otherwise than they would behave spontaneously. In such proposals as: let us raise farm prices, let us raise wage rates, let us lower profits, let us curtail the salaries of executives, the us ultimately refers to the police. Yet the authors of these projects protest that they are planning for freedom and industrial democracy.




:oldman:



So TJ what do you have to say about Mises, The Austrian School of Economics and National Socialism
[and don't bother with any diatribe about fascist = right wing that is :bs: and would just show the crutches of Stalinism you stand with]



ASoE and Free Markets vs Keynesian Economics


:tap:
 
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tommyjo

New Member
OMG...now you are trotting our Austrian economics??? After the trouncing that mindset has taken over the past 6 years???? You are back to posting stuff from The Blaze???

Bait won't work chief. Austrian economics is a joke. If you need to know why, just look over the past few years.

The Austrian vs Keynes debate ended about 3 years ago. You really need some sources that are up to date.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
OMG...now you are trotting our Austrian economics??? After the trouncing that mindset has taken over the past 6 years????


you can ofc have some data to back up the assertion Austrian Economics have been kicked to the curb as viable
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
:shrug:


I have not seen any 'Free Market' certainly not in the healthcare arena .... but then there never has .... :shrug:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
The Austrian vs Keynes debate ended about 3 years ago. .

That is about as bad as saying that 'the science is settled' on man made global cool warming changey thingy.

To be for sure, we are not a nation that likes free markets and both parties are adamantly against the 'Austrian' school and Keynes has won. Now, the next question is 'what does that mean?'. Keynes has only won in that both parties are all for government spending. That is not the same thing as successfully promoting the general welfare which, our version of Keynes has, decidedly, not done. So, that is the next question, what serves the national interest, the promoting of the general welfare? It sure ain't TARP or the bailouts or the Stimulus. Unless you define the 'general' welfare as 'the rich and the poor'.

Keynes, as applied in the US, has been a disaster for the American middle class not least of which is the absolute distortion of any common understanding of how economics works outside of a 'too big to fail' model. We CAN say we've tried a LOT of Keynes. We can NOT say, in the last 15 years, that we've tried much, if any, free market ideas.

So, the debate may well have ended but, that is not to say market solutions were even given a try. That's one of the sad legacies of the Bush years, that conservative, market based ideology gets all of the blame and yet, Bush didn't have a market based bone in his body. Certainly not in terms of policy.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I still have not seen an explanation for why it is allegedly dead ..
.... maybe to progressives that want more Keynes, they dismiss ASoE with a wave of their elitist hand


but that does not make the discussion over
 

LibertyBeacon

Unto dust we shall return
:oldman:



So TJ what do you have to say about Mises, The Austrian School of Economics and National Socialism
[and don't bother with any diatribe about fascist = right wing that is :bs: and would just show the crutches of Stalinism you stand with]



ASoE and Free Markets vs Keynesian Economics


:tap:

STFU SLURPS. You don't know chit about the Austrian School.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I still have not seen an explanation for why it is allegedly dead ..
.... maybe to progressives that want more Keynes, they dismiss ASoE with a wave of their elitist hand


but that does not make the discussion over

For a discussion to be alive, it has to have advocates. That used to be the GOP. Now, the GOP is actively hostile to markets and very much in favor of centralized control. The only arguing is over whose constituents get more stuff this term.

The GOP is about to gain even more legislative control. Do you think, for one minute, the ACA is in ANY danger? Will actually be repealed and replaced with a market based solution? Of course not. The GOP loved the prior government controlled system because their constituents learned how to exploit it, as they are now.

It's over. There are no real market supporters anymore. We are Too Big To Fail and that is the embodiment of Keynes.
 
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