Making NRA Membership Lists Public

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EmptyTimCup

Guest
:jameo:



Making NRA Membership Lists Public



Did I get your attention?

I figured that a title about campaign finance reform wouldn’t grab too many eyeballs. But telling people about the intended result of this “reform” probably would. I’ve been thinking about this post for a while now, but decided that Dave Kopel’s release of his June First Freedom article on the subject made the issue more relevant for the blog.

There is one key to the Schumer-backed DISCLOSE Act that makes it dangerous for gun owners who want to organize in any meaningful manner: disclosure of all donors/members whose money may have funded independent expenditures to the FEC.

According to The New York Times, a “reform” bill might require advocacy groups (such as NRA) “to identify all their financial donors or set up separate accounts to handle political spending and identify the donors to that account.”

Simply put: If NRA wants to use its general funds from member dues to speak out during election season, then NRA would have to give the federal government a list of every single NRA member.

The FEC donor databases are open to all, and the most user-friendly that makes looking up individuals easy and fast is the database available at OpenSecrets.org. Kopel uses the example that your boss could decide to cross-reference you to find out what you’re up to outside of work hours. At that point, you just have to hope he/she isn’t anti-gun, or you may find yourself in the unemployment line. Even if NRA maintains a separate fund for campaign expenditures, you can’t donate if you value your privacy.

We’re by far not the only issue concerned about these crazy disclosure agreements. The National Right to Life Committee is opposing the bill on the same grounds:

One of those regulations involves NRLC and other pro-life groups having to identify donors publicly anytime it runs communications in certain times that ask people to contact Congress about legislation related to pro-life concerns.

“Our members and supporters have a right to support our public advocacy about important and controversial issues without having their identifying information posted on the Internet, exposing them to harassment or retribution by those who may disagree with their beliefs,” NRLC concluded.

It’s pretty dangerous in some areas of the country to be socially conservative. See the harassment that same-sex marriage opponents faced in California as an exhibit of what pro-lifers – and possibly gun owners – could face.

Even the parts of the bill that aren’t dangerous for gun owners actively try to cut us off at the knees when it comes to political advertising. I’m not opposed to the spirit of an organization head doing a disclaimer as part of a commercial, but as specific as the DISCLOSURE Act is, it limits our options in order to cut our political effectiveness.





Politically, Congress still knows we can raise some hell on this issue. The House sponsor sat down with NRA recently to try and figure out their concerns, and they are specifically worried about last minute lobbying blitzes. It would seem that the pro-life groups and the Chamber of Commerce are planning to score the vote – and I suspect that the final product will determine whether or not NRA scores the vote. (If they do, Democrats may lose the votes they claim to have to pass it in the House.)

The Chamber has particular concerns about how this bill favors unions above other corporations:

For example, companies with government contracts worth $50,000 or more and those with foreign ownership would be banned from funding political ads and engaging in other campaign-related activity. The business group believes unions that receive federal grants, have collective bargaining agreements with the government or have international affiliates should be subject to similar limits.

Eugene Scalia, a partner at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher and counsel to the Chamber, said the Disclose Act does not balance restrictions on corporations and unions equally, as previous campaign finance reform bills have.

“This bill is a departure from that tradition,” he said.

This is one of the reasons the NRLC argued the bill name should really stand for “Deterring Independent Speech about Congress except by Labor Organizations and Selected Elites.”

Right now, the bill has been postponed in the House. The committee vote was down party lines, and all efforts to make this bill more fair have been turned down based on party affiliation.

The intentional partisanship and one-sided nature of this was demonstrated by the defeat of a series of amendments in the committee mark-up that were proposed by Republicans. This included an amendment by Rep. Dan Lungren (R., Calif.) that would have extended the prohibition on government contractors to any unions that have representational contracts with the government, as well as an amendment by Rep. Gregg Harper (R., Miss.) that would have extended the same ban to any other recipient of government grants, such as the liberal groups that receive so many federal earmarks and other funds. When Lungren tried to extend the political activity ban on corporations with foreign shareholders or corporate directors to unions that receive dues from foreign nationals, that was also rejected.



but of course UNIONS can do as they wish :popcorn:
 
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EmptyTimCup

Guest
Protest Easy Guns's Photos - Wall Photos | Facebook


for those that have Facebook ...

I found some loser Group Stop Easy Guns ...


some took a pic in a starbucks ...

I am guessing a customer brought in there AR-15 and Beretta on the way to the Range :whistle:

Protest Easy Guns's Photos - SHAME ON STARBUCKS! Stop Allowing Guns Next to our Loved Ones!

I think I'll be going to Peet's for my coffee instead (since Peet's Coffee prohibits guns in their stores).

Question for Starbucks: How many guns are you going to allow customers to bring in?


Protest guns in your local Starbucks!

Tell Starbucks managers you will STOP going there if they keep allowing guns next to our children and loved ones.

Who is carrying the guns? Are they mentally unstable? Can Starbucks confirm the person carrying the gun is safe? Can Starbucks confirm the gun will not go off by mistake and shoot someone dead? No, of course they can't!

:killingme
Does Starbucks really think we're going to risk not knowing if the guys carrying the guns are all there in the head when we choose whether or not to sit next to them? In the majority of states you don't have to have any type of permit, training and/or a criminal background check to open carry guns like this.

A cup of coffee really is not worth risking our lives not knowing if we and our loved ones are going to be safe or not next to these armed men.

With gun laws so lax in this country, ANYONE can buy a gun as easily as a candy bar in gun shows in the majority of states in the U.S.! Cash & Carry, without a criminal background check -- or even an id check -- because of the gun show loophole! We DON'T WANT these guns next to our children and loved ones in Starbucks!



I think I need to go to Starbucks Today
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
I am all for the right of free association. I am all for the right to petition government. I am also all for the right to know who is petitioning my government for what.

It's one thing to enjoy your privacy if its got nothing to do with me. It is another if it does.

:buddies:
 

Vince

......
Simply put: If NRA wants to use its general funds from member dues to speak out during election season, then NRA would have to give the federal government a list of every single NRA member.
Makin a list, checkin it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice, gun control is comin to town.

An easy list for the government when it comes time to collect those nasty guns. Only problem they are going to have is the people that own these guns aren't going to give them up without a fight.
 
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retiredweaxman

Guest
Makin a list, checkin it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice, gun control is comin to town.

An easy list for the government when it comes time to collect those nasty guns. Only problem they are going to have is the people that own these guns aren't going to give them up without a fight.

Let me state that I am not a gun owner and therefore, I am probably a little naive on the subject. However, I do not see this NRA disclosure as being a problem.

People seem to be a little worried about being on a list and someone even posted this list could be used to take away your guns. I woud think there are easier ways to gather names to take away guns.

If you are licensed to hunt, your name is already on a list. How about registering a gun when you buy it? I would think a list has been generated there as well.

So, there should be lists already out there with people that have guns. Disclosing that you are a member of the NRA does not mean you own a gun - it just means you support that group.

If your gun is legally owned and registered/licensed, then there is no problem. If it is not legally owned, then it should be taken away. How can some people agree with Arizona's stance on illegal aliens yet be up in arms that their "illegal" firearms could be taken away (if it ever came to that)?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Let me state that I am not a gun owner and therefore, I am probably a little naive on the subject. However, I do not see this NRA disclosure as being a problem.

People seem to be a little worried about being on a list and someone even posted this list could be used to take away your guns. I woud think there are easier ways to gather names to take away guns.

If you are licensed to hunt, your name is already on a list. How about registering a gun when you buy it? I would think a list has been generated there as well.

So, there should be lists already out there with people that have guns. Disclosing that you are a member of the NRA does not mean you own a gun - it just means you support that group.

If your gun is legally owned and registered/licensed, then there is no problem. If it is not legally owned, then it should be taken away. How can some people agree with Arizona's stance on illegal aliens yet be up in arms that their "illegal" firearms could be taken away (if it ever came to that)?

If I may, the right to keep and bear arms is, obviously, an individual right as are all the rights in the bill of rights. Is there an obligation to register your right to speak before going over to a friends house to talk about politics? Or whatever you wish to talk about?

Is there an obligation to register your blender with the government before going out and using it, taking it to a party? To have the government OK before whipping out the power tools?

Restrictions are supposed to be on the government, not we, the people. The slippery slope you hear so much about is the very act of starting to limit rights, speech, association, guns, what have you, a little bit here, a little bit there as some sort of convenience to politicians instead of holding individuals who actually do something wrong responsible for their actions. At some point, any and all limits are justifiable, yes?

We're talking presumption of guilt here. :buddies:
 
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retiredweaxman

Guest
Larry, of all the people that post on the forums, your opinion is one of the highest I respect.

You make some very valid points and raise some questions. However, the law, as it is written (at least as I understand it and I may be wrong), states that firearms must be registered. That does not mean a person can not own firearms and no one is trying to take that away. However, if someone wants to own a firearm, then they have to do it legally.

I must say that I am all in favor of the 5-10 day wait period as well - as long as that wait period is for the sole purpose of checking on someone's background and their right to legally own firearms. If someone has lost that right through felony charges, "Big Chicken Dinner" from the military, prior convictions, etc then they have no right to own a firearm. Through their own negligence and disregard for the rules, they lost that right.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
You make some very valid points and raise some questions. However, the law, as it is written (at least as I understand it and I may be wrong), states that firearms must be registered. That does not mean a person can not own firearms and no one is trying to take that away. However, if someone wants to own a firearm, then they have to do it legally.

But where does the government right to require registration come from? Certainly not the constitution any more than a right to require you and I register our computers or letters or words we may choose to speak in public.

If you have the right to rise up and overthrow the government, and you do, our founders did not recognize the right of the government to put itself over you in certain, specific areas.

Now, obviously, there is a public concern over a gun in the wrong hands but, we're supposed to amend the Constitution if we don't like it. Not ignore it.

:buddies:
 

Matthew

New Member
Let me state that I am not a gun owner and therefore, I am probably a little naive on the subject. However, I do not see this NRA disclosure as being a problem.

People seem to be a little worried about being on a list and someone even posted this list could be used to take away your guns. I woud think there are easier ways to gather names to take away guns.

If you are licensed to hunt, your name is already on a list. How about registering a gun when you buy it? I would think a list has been generated there as well.

So, there should be lists already out there with people that have guns. Disclosing that you are a member of the NRA does not mean you own a gun - it just means you support that group.


.

If your gun is legally owned and registered/licensed, then there is no problem. If it is not legally owned, then it should be taken away. How can some people agree with Arizona's stance on illegal aliens yet be up in arms that their "illegal" firearms could be taken away (if it ever came to that)?

Let me try and put it in plain and simple terms.
Six years ago, my little sister and her husband were the victims of a home invasion. The punks who robbed them were armed . My sister was not and did not believe in having home protection other than electronic ( which seemed to fail that night). I thank God she wasn't raped, but psychologically she was harmed. I am quite sure "these fine young gentlemen" were not concerned with gun control.
I have dogs, I have electronics. However as a combat veteran, I rely on the same old friend that protected me in injun country: my weapon. Granted it is not the same I carried, but an M1 Garand was good enough to put holes in Japanese and Germans, it's like that old time religion "It's good enough for me".
Forcing the NRA to give lists just gives an encroaching federal government that much more enducement to whittle away our liberties further.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
Larry, of all the people that post on the forums, your opinion is one of the highest I respect.

You make some very valid points and raise some questions. However, the law, as it is written (at least as I understand it and I may be wrong), states that firearms must be registered. That does not mean a person can not own firearms and no one is trying to take that away. However, if someone wants to own a firearm, then they have to do it legally.

I must say that I am all in favor of the 5-10 day wait period as well - as long as that wait period is for the sole purpose of checking on someone's background and their right to legally own firearms. If someone has lost that right through felony charges, "Big Chicken Dinner" from the military, prior convictions, etc then they have no right to own a firearm. Through their own negligence and disregard for the rules, they lost that right.
Just a quick side point, long guns don't generally require registration.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
You make some very valid points and raise some questions. However, the law, as it is written (at least as I understand it and I may be wrong), states that firearms must be registered. That does not mean a person can not own firearms and no one is trying to take that away. However, if someone wants to own a firearm, then they have to do it legally.

I must say that I am all in favor of the 5-10 day wait period as well - as long as that wait period is for the sole purpose of checking on someone's background and their right to legally own firearms. If someone has lost that right through felony charges, "Big Chicken Dinner" from the military, prior convictions, etc then they have no right to own a firearm. Through their own negligence and disregard for the rules, they lost that right.


What about the legality of the law requiring registration of all firearms?

Just because gun owners (and I have to say THEY, as I haven't owned any guns since the boating accident) are currently on lists don't make the NEW lists any more palatable.

My neighbor owning a gun shouldn't be a requirment for him to be on ANY special list.

And using the "They are on lists now" as a defense to placing them on more lists is ludicrous.

I don't like the 5-10 day waiting list.. in this day and age there is no reason for a wait. There is NOTHING they can find out about a person in 5 - 10 days, that they can't find out in a 30 second database check using a computer. The 5 - 10 day wait has NOTHING to do with background checks, but more to do with making it that much harder for someone to buy a gun, and hopefully difficult enough to where the majority just won't bother.

Of course the 5 - 10 day wait is great for someone who is in fear for their life from a former spouse, or a recipient of death threats..


We haven't even talked about special taxes on ammunition, placing ammunition costs high enough where all but the rich can afford it (yes that's coming)..


And lastly.. the celebrities AND politicians that speak out about personal gun ownership, and there being NO need for self protection while hiding behind their armed bodyguards. Something 99.9% of citizens can not afford, and are not afforded.
 
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retiredweaxman

Guest
But where does the government right to require registration come from? Certainly not the constitution any more than a right to require you and I register our computers or letters or words we may choose to speak in public.

If you have the right to rise up and overthrow the government, and you do, our founders did not recognize the right of the government to put itself over you in certain, specific areas.

Now, obviously, there is a public concern over a gun in the wrong hands but, we're supposed to amend the Constitution if we don't like it. Not ignore it.

:buddies:

Larry, I agree, the Constitution should have been amended to include registration. However, recent (past 20-30 years) events have forced lawmakers to add to the requirements for gun owners. Have those laws ever been challenged up to the Supreme Court to see if the registration laws are constitutional? That is an honest question as I do not know the answer. If they have been challenged and the Supreme Court has ruled that the registration laws are constitutional, then it is our responsibility to follow those laws.

Matthew, I am sorry to hear what happened to your family....
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Has there been a reduction in any violent crime since the advent of the 5 - 10 day wait?

Any reduction since the requirement to register??

No, because criminals aren't going to use legal means to get their guns in the first place. They'll come and steal guns from your house (you know, the gun owners they found on one of the many lists that are public) and go pop a cap in their rivals butt, or rob a bank.. They are NOT going to go to the Tackle Box to get a gun, unless they break in and steal them... and yeah, that's already been done.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Larry, I agree, the Constitution should have been amended to include registration. However, recent (past 20-30 years) events have forced lawmakers to add to the requirements for gun owners. Have those laws ever been challenged up to the Supreme Court to see if the registration laws are constitutional? That is an honest question as I do not know the answer. If they have been challenged and the Supreme Court has ruled that the registration laws are constitutional, then it is our responsibility to follow those laws.

...

Ah, this is where we disagree, sort of. In my view, the courts failed us over the years by allowing congress and the executive to pass unconstitutional laws. The recent Heller decision is a small step towards fixing this.

In my view, congress being told 'you can't do that!' forces the issue and then we, the people, having to go through an amendment process might well find it is FAR easier to go after those who misuse a weapon to violate someone else's life/liberty/pursuit of happiness and not take the expedient, easy way out by simply presuming everyone guilty.

:buddies:
 
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retiredweaxman

Guest
Has there been a reduction in any violent crime since the advent of the 5 - 10 day wait?

Any reduction since the requirement to register??

No, because criminals aren't going to use legal means to get their guns in the first place. They'll come and steal guns from your house (you know, the gun owners they found on one of the many lists that are public) and go pop a cap in their rivals butt, or rob a bank.. They are NOT going to go to the Tackle Box to get a gun, unless they break in and steal them... and yeah, that's already been done.

I can not honestly answer your question as I have not researched any stats. However, I would like to add that IF violent crimes have stayed the same or increased in the past 5 years, it might be because of the reduced presence of uniformed police, reduced roving patrols, etc due to budget cuts at the local level.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Let me try and put it in plain and simple terms.
Six years ago, my little sister and her husband were the victims of a home invasion. The punks who robbed them were armed . My sister was not and did not believe in having home protection other than electronic ( which seemed to fail that night). I thank God she wasn't raped, but psychologically she was harmed. I am quite sure "these fine young gentlemen" were not concerned with gun control.
I have dogs, I have electronics. However as a combat veteran, I rely on the same old friend that protected me in injun country: my weapon. Granted it is not the same I carried, but an M1 Garand was good enough to put holes in Japanese and Germans, it's like that old time religion "It's good enough for me".
Forcing the NRA to give lists just gives an encroaching federal government that much more enducement to whittle away our liberties further.

But I'm sure the punks guns were registered. I mean if they were going to invade someone's home you KNOW the gun registration laws would deter them or at least ensure they did so legally purchased and registered guns..

The 5 - 10 day wait must have been excrutiating for the criminals.. having to wait all that time before they could comitt their crimes..
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I can not honestly answer your question as I have not researched any stats. However, I would like to add that IF violent crimes have stayed the same or increased in the past 5 years, it might be because of the reduced presence of uniformed police, reduced roving patrols, etc due to budget cuts at the local level.

Consider; your daughter lives in LA, circa Rodney King. Not expecting riots, she none the less finds that her neighborhood is exploding in violence. What if she wants to buy a gun on the way home?

What if my gay brother has a run in with a particularly ugly homophobe who promises to kill him and bro wants to buy a gun at lunch time, fearing for his life?

Stats show, clearly, that places where you and I can carry a concealed weapon that the criminals tend to wonder if someone has a concealed weapon and act accordingly.

:buddies:
 
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retiredweaxman

Guest
Consider; your daughter lives in LA, circa Rodney King. Not expecting riots, she none the less finds that her neighborhood is exploding in violence. What if she wants to buy a gun on the way home?

What if my gay brother has a run in with a particularly ugly homophobe who promises to kill him and bro wants to buy a gun at lunch time, fearing for his life?

Stats show, clearly, that places where you and I can carry a concealed weapon that the criminals tend to wonder if someone has a concealed weapon and act accordingly.

:buddies:

Interesting points you bring up...but I do not think we can go out and buy a gun as if it were a pack of gum...In the instances you bring up, I would recommend:

1. My 'daughter" living in LA - I would recommend she leave the area and stay with relatives or at a hotel until things settle down. During the time away, she could buy a firearm if she felt it necessary down the road.
2. Your "bro" - I would report the homophobe to the Police as a "terroristic threat" then take steps to protect myself. if that means I decide to temporarily move and buy a firearm then so be it. If that means I am away from my house for a period of time - then so be it - at least I will be safe and alive.

As for the question of the constitutionality of registering firearms, I found this:

Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia said that an individual right to bear arms is supported by "the historical narrative" both before and after the Second Amendment was adopted.

The Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home," Scalia said. The court also struck down Washington's requirement that firearms be equipped with trigger locks or kept disassembled, but left intact the licensing of guns.

Here is the link from June 2008 with a Conservative Supreme Court:

Supreme Court Shoots Down D.C. Gun Ban - CBS News

Here is another from Aug 2009:

Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional - Taking Liberties - CBS News
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Interesting points you bring up...but I do not think we can go out and buy a gun as if it were a pack of gum...In the instances you bring up, I would recommend:

1. My 'daughter" living in LA - I would recommend she leave the area and stay with relatives or at a hotel until things settle down. During the time away, she could buy a firearm if she felt it necessary down the road.
2. Your "bro" - I would report the homophobe to the Police as a "terroristic threat" then take steps to protect myself. if that means I decide to temporarily move and buy a firearm then so be it. If that means I am away from my house for a period of time - then so be it - at least I will be safe and alive.

As for the question of the constitutionality of registering firearms, I found this:

Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia said that an individual right to bear arms is supported by "the historical narrative" both before and after the Second Amendment was adopted.

The Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home," Scalia said. The court also struck down Washington's requirement that firearms be equipped with trigger locks or kept disassembled, but left intact the licensing of guns.

Here is the link from June 2008 with a Conservative Supreme Court:

Supreme Court Shoots Down D.C. Gun Ban - CBS News

Here is another from Aug 2009:

Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional - Taking Liberties - CBS News

I don't see any mention of actually registering the firearms.. only that it would unconstitutional to BAN handguns.

I find it hard to believe that ANY AMerican would find it OK to be bullied out your own home.. to find it acceptable to not be afforded the right to protect self and property. To say, if you feel threatened the answer is you should move?? REALLY?? How many can afford to live in a hotel while the threat passes or 5 - 10 days while the gov't does the required "background checks"??

You have NO qualms with the government either taking away the right to self defense entirely, or at least delaying it while they do background checks on HER.. while the criminal freely roams.
 
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