Marie and Libby

[libby]

As I read Deuteronomy, it says, "in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.".
Now, I'm just curious...where is there anything that leads you to believe that God is instructing them to avoid making images of beings in Heaven or Hell, as opposed to anything on the earth, in the sky or in the waters, as the Bible quite categorically says?
The golden calf would not fall into the category of forbidden images, then, right? It was, after all, like the images of your family, on the earth. It is not an image from Heaven or Hell. In addition, according the you, the prohibition is does not apply to images "that are not things of adoration in the first place." A calf is not a thing of adoration in the first place.
Soooo, what am I missing?

 

[Xaquin44]

As I read Deuteronomy, it says, "in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.".
Now, I'm just curious...where is there anything that leads you to believe that God is instructing them to avoid making images of beings in Heaven or Hell, as opposed to anything on the earth, in the sky or in the waters, as the Bible quite categorically says?
The golden calf would not fall into the category of forbidden images, then, right? It was, after all, like the images of your family, on the earth. It is not an image from Heaven or Hell. In addition, according the you, the prohibition is does not apply to images "that are not things of adoration in the first place." A calf is not a thing of adoration in the first place.
Soooo, what am I missing?

why are you addressing a question to yourself?

 

[libby]

why are you addressing a question to yourself?

Nope, it's from another thread.
I suppose I could put the original point of Marie's. I'll post the exchange in case anyone wants to chime in.

Nothing, First off a Biblical church wouldnt send you an image of anything in Heaven above or in the earth beneath. Also since we have no idea what Christ looked like.Then theres is the second commandment about graven images. I cant recall the Bible ever ordaining prayer rugs as part of Biblical worship.
If you have prayer concerns lift them up to a local body that your apart of, people that you know will pray for you and are concerned for you.
Why not send your money if you need to, to some ministery that you know is going to further the gospel or put Gods word in the hands of people that are so desperate for it?

Libby replies

Be sure to throw out all photos of your family then, because that would be making an image of something on the earth

.
Marie replies

You missread its heaven above, or earth beneath (Hell)

Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth"

Radiant 1 eloquently points out

God forbids graven images for the purposes of idolatry and surely you would agree that the worship of Jesus Christ Son of God is not idolatry. Elsewhere in scipture God most certainly approves of the use of images and even commands the Isrealites to make them.

Ex. 25:18-19 - The Lord said make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end...

Ex. 26:1 - You shall make the tabernacle with ... cherubim skillfully worked.

Num. 21:8-9 - The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.' So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole.

1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29 - He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers.

As you probably know, cherubim are things of heaven, as is Christ. Might I suggest you re-think your own aptitude regarding the understanding of scripture?

Marie

I think the difference Is Angels or snakes are not things of adoration in the first place (like God and were expressly told NOT to worship Angels) plus God told them to do it. Granted Angels are in heaven, and that was a clever reply. The problem is scripture says what it says, and in more than one place (That’s important). The only other alternative, is to say that doesn’t apply because it’s in the old covenant or wasn’t written directly to us, but that doesn’t work either as
1. The moral law is brought over into the New Testament at least 9 out of 10 are (Except for the Sabbath).
2. Hermeneutically if the first didn’t apply, than you would have to see if the principle applies to today and it does.

I appreciate the thought you gave your reply, but I have to stick with my first thought.
Id also like to make the case for the Holiness of God. Although one of Gods attributes is love, so is Wrath and being just. We have lost our sense of who God really is and having a reverent fear of God. Isaiah's response to God was Woe is me; I come from a people of unclean lips!

Lastly, Libby

As I read Deuteronomy, it says, "in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.".
Now, I'm just curious...where is there anything that leads you to believe that God is instructing them to avoid making images of beings in Heaven or Hell, as opposed to anything on the earth, in the sky or in the waters, as the Bible quite categorically says?
The golden calf would not fall into the category of forbidden images, then, right? It was, after all, like the images of your family, on the earth. It is not an image from Heaven or Hell. In addition, according the you, the prohibition is does not apply to images "that are not things of adoration in the first place." A calf is not a thing of adoration in the first place.
Soooo, what am I missing?

 

[Gwydion]

why are you addressing a question to yourself?

I don't even understand what the OP is asking...

 

[Xaquin44]

gotcha libby .... all I saw was Marie and Libby and what looked like you asking a question of yourself hehe

/wave

 

[Xaquin44]

I don't even understand what the OP is asking...

I guess we'd have to read the thread it was pulled out of hehe

 

[Gwydion]

As I read Deuteronomy, it says, "in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.".
Now, I'm just curious...where is there anything that leads you to believe that God is instructing them to avoid making images of beings in Heaven or Hell, as opposed to anything on the earth, in the sky or in the waters, as the Bible quite categorically says?
The golden calf would not fall into the category of forbidden images, then, right? It was, after all, like the images of your family, on the earth. It is not an image from Heaven or Hell. In addition, according the you, the prohibition is does not apply to images "that are not things of adoration in the first place." A calf is not a thing of adoration in the first place.
Soooo, what am I missing?

First off, I point out you are taking the bible literally, which will always result in questions that can never be answered and require you to put faith in things you, nor anybody else, will ever understand.

Secondly, why is a calf a thing not of adoration? For some people, a calf will provide milk, cheese, meat, fat, clothing, shelter, and entertainment...certainly more so back in the biblical times than now. As they saying goes, one man's piece of junk is another man's treasure...there is absolutely nothing on this earth that is not admired. Even rats.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Hi Libby, since you opened it up, I'll comment. The issue here is worship, not so much the making of idols.
For example, a cross alone is fine to display and not worship since it is a "graven or carved" image, but one with a figure on it that you worship or bow down to is wrong.
This was the same reasoning with the golden calf Exodus 32 v 7, 8. They not only made it but they worshipped it and God was furious!

 

[Radiant1]

The issue here is worship, not so much the making of idols.
For example, a cross alone is fine to display and not worship since it is a "graven or carved" image, but one with a figure on it that you worship or bow down to is wrong.

Even with the corpus (Jesus) on the cross the object in and of itself is not worshiped (any more than the pic of Jesus Doug received). So, what's your point exactly?

 

[libby]

Hi Libby, since you opened it up, I'll comment. The issue here is worship, not so much the making of idols.
For example, a cross alone is fine to display and not worship since it is a "graven or carved" image, but one with a figure on it that you worship or bow down to is wrong.
This was the same reasoning with the golden calf Exodus 32 v 7, 8. They not only made it but they worshipped it and God was furious!

Hi IT,
Of course I would agree that worship is the defining factor, but that is not what Marie said. She is admonishing the makers of a rug, and (and I'll admit this is an assumption) I would bet the farm that no one intended to worship the rug.
I will re-iterate, is the prohibition on images found on this earth, or in Heaven and Hell?

 

[PsyOps]

Hi IT,
Of course I would agree that worship is the defining factor, but that is not what Marie said. She is admonishing the makers of a rug, and (and I'll admit this is an assumption) I would bet the farm that no one intended to worship the rug.
I will re-iterate, is the prohibition on images found on this earth, or in Heaven and Hell?

A rug?

I have rugs in my house. My dog has shown signs of worshipping them. I have the stains to prove it.

 

[libby]

First off, I point out you are taking the bible literally, which will always result in questions that can never be answered and require you to put faith in things you, nor anybody else, will ever understand.

Secondly, why is a calf a thing not of adoration? For some people, a calf will provide milk, cheese, meat, fat, clothing, shelter, and entertainment...certainly more so back in the biblical times than now. As they saying goes, one man's piece of junk is another man's treasure...there is absolutely nothing on this earth that is not admired. Even rats.

My comment about calves was in response to Marie. If you haven't had a chance to read the exchange you will be confused about who-said-what.
In short, Marie contends that the Bible forbids the making of images. Radient 1 points out where God instructs the making of images (cherubim, etc). Marie backpeddles and says that those are "not objects of adoration" in the first place, so....I guess they're okay, which is what we're trying to hammer out. So, if angels are not objects of adoration in the first place, then neither is a calf, so making the image should be just dandy.
Yes, it's a bit confusing.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Hi IT,
Of course I would agree that worship is the defining factor, but that is not what Marie said. She is admonishing the makers of a rug, and (and I'll admit this is an assumption) I would bet the farm that no one intended to worship the rug.
I will re-iterate, is the prohibition on images found on this earth, or in Heaven and Hell?

The prohibition is worshipping anything, anywhere other than the one true God. A prayer rug is fine to pray on, admire and look at but not to worship.
You have to understand how the Bible speaks in this case. God means anywhere when He says: "in Heaven above, on the earth below or in the waters below".
Someone mentioned the pole with the serpent on it (Caduceus) and you need to realize that the people were instructed to "look at it", not worship it, so there is no problem there.

 

[libby]

A rug?

I have rugs in my house. My dog has shown signs of worshipping them. I have the stains to prove it.

Yep, this is where this all began...

 

[ItalianScallion]

First off, I point out you are taking the bible literally, which will always result in questions that can never be answered and require you to put faith in things you, nor anybody else, will ever understand.

Secondly, why is a calf a thing not of adoration? For some people, a calf will provide milk, cheese, meat, fat, clothing, shelter, and entertainment...certainly more so back in the biblical times than now. As they saying goes, one man's piece of junk is another man's treasure...there is absolutely nothing on this earth that is not admired. Even rats.

There is a time to take the Bible literally and a time not to. You cannot make a blanket statement about that when you say "always".
And there is a fine line between adoration and worship but still a difference.
Uh, admiring rats??

 

[rockfish]

 

[Xaquin44]

There is a time to take the Bible literally

(when it backs me up)

and a time not to.

(when it doesn't back me up) (or when it contradicts itself)

(only I know which are which)

(it's true!)

 

[Bavarian]

The point is that a charity sent a rug with a picture of God on it and the do-it-yourself types can't handle it. That is the advantage of following the Church founded by Christ which He entrusted to St. Peter and inspired the Apostles with the Holy Ghost. We know what is right and wrong because we have a foundation, The Deposit of Faith. One can see right off the bat where Marie comes from by saying the second commandment is no graven images. Well, people, the Commandments were not numbered in the Bible, the Bible also did not come with chapter and verse numbers, so all this is arbritary as to which phase is a stand-alone commandment and which is part of another.
I will take this time to convey a point I recently learned from the Chaplain on the MS Amsterdam. The reason we Catholics separate the coveting of your neighrbor's wife from his property was to show that wives were not property.

As for the charity, if you like what they are doing, then consider donating and donate what you want to, don't ask others.

 

[PsyOps]

Yep, this is where this all began...

Wow! All manner of things.

 

[libby]

The point is that a charity sent a rug with a picture of God on it and the do-it-yourself types can't handle it. That is the advantage of following the Church founded by Christ which He entrusted to St. Peter and inspired the Apostles with the Holy Ghost. We know what is right and wrong because we have a foundation, The Deposit of Faith. One can see right off the bat where Marie comes from by saying the second commandment is no graven images. Well, people, the Commandments were not numbered in the Bible, the Bible did not come with chapter and verse numbers, so all this is arbirtary as to which phase is a commandment and which is part of another.
I will take this time to convey a point I recently learned from the Chaplain on the MS Amsterdam. The reason we Catholics separate the cviting of your neighrbor's wife from his property was to show that wives were not property.

As for the charity, if you like what they are doing, then consider donating and donate what you want to, don't ask others.

And this is what I love about the Church, and God's goodness in providing it for us. While others can argue that the Holy Spirit led them to such-and-such a conclusion, the next guy can make the same claim of Divine Guidance, yet come up with a different interpretation of the relevant Scripture. Who's right?
There is no way to categorically know for Bible Christians, although I will add that I do believe that many are sincere in their love for, and desire to do the will of, God.