McCain says it works...

[harleygirl]

But he wants to stop it?

John McCain: Torture Worked on Me

Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.

Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml

 

[Bustem' Down]

Of course torture works. Done the right why, I could get you to admit your Jesus.

 

[SamSpade]

Of course torture works. Done the right why, I could get you to admit your Jesus.

That's actually a good reason why it probably *doesn't* work. Getting a prisoner to say whatever you want him to say ISN'T getting 'information'. Getting him to confess that bin Laden is his sex-toy isn't as useful as getting him to tell you where he *IS*.

 

[itsbob]

That's actually a good reason why it probably *doesn't* work. Getting a prisoner to say whatever you want him to say ISN'T getting 'information'. Getting him to confess that bin Laden is his sex-toy isn't as useful as getting him to tell you where he *IS*.

It does work, and in fact it works so well, that when people are captured they aren't asked or expected to keep secrets.. they are told hold out as long as you can, at least 24 hours. After 24 hours anything that they had privy to is changed.. code books, passwords etc. No matter what the liberals want you to believe torture is VERY effective, and some of our enemies consider us weak, because we don't have the backbone to use like they would to one of their prisoners.

 

[tirdun]

John McCain signed a document he didn't read, written in a language he didn't understand after days of torture. He also confessed to war crimes and made several prepared statements. The total informational value to the Viet Cong: Zero. It was marginally useful as propaganda within North Vietnam, at best.

The simple fact is that most physical torture simply doesn't work because the time it takes to get the information and the reliability of the information due to the mental state of the person being tortured are both incredibly suspect. After torture, you, I or anyone else would admit to, sign or say whatever it took to stop it. You want names? I'll make some up. Troop positions? Anywhere you want.

McCain has said repeatedly that torture is ineffective as a means of gathering information, not that he didn't succomb to it.

 

[itsbob]

John McCain signed a document he didn't read, written in a language he didn't understand after days of torture. He also confessed to war crimes and made several prepared statements.

So in a nutshell... IT WORKED!! He confessed, and acted abnormally, against every bit of training he ever had.. at this point they could have put him on trial and executed him on just this admission of guilt.

At the time he was only a pilot.. the amount of information or intelligence he had was probably pretty close to zero, other then the current mission he was on, and what his targets were.


The only reason he didn't give up anything of value was because he didn't KNOW anything of value.

 

[vraiblonde]

The only reason he didn't give up anything of value was because he didn't KNOW anything of value.

Exactly. It works just fine if you torture the right person.

 

[SamSpade]

So in a nutshell... IT WORKED!! He confessed, and acted abnormally, against every bit of training he ever had.. at this point they could have put him on trial and executed him on just this admission of guilt.

At the time he was only a pilot.. the amount of information or intelligence he had was probably pretty close to zero, other then the current mission he was on, and what his targets were.


The only reason he didn't give up anything of value was because he didn't KNOW anything of value.

Well that's my point - if the whole point of torture is SIMPLY TO MAKE THE OTHER GUY GIVE UP - it is hugely successful. You can get people to say, do and believe anything.

But the whole point of torture is to get information. If they actually DO know something valuable, you might get it, slightly distorted. If they DON'T, you'll STILL get something, but it's going to be useless; but you won't KNOW that for certain. So torture is sometimes unreliable.

 

[Leftrudder]

ItsBob said
"It does work, and in fact it works so well, that when people are captured they aren't asked or expected to keep secrets.. they are told hold out as long as you can, at least 24 hours. After 24 hours anything that they had privy to is changed.. code books, passwords etc"
The US Armed Forces Code of Conduct, article 5 states:
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

Where in article 5 is there a 24 hour time limit? Where does it say " You're not asked or expected to keep secrets"?

I am a little confused as to how you interpet the Code of Conduct to allow for not keeping secrets. "I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause" pretty much says you are expected to keep any classified information you may have to yourself. The idea behind "utmost of my ability" in article 5 is to give the serviceman < and woman > some mental relief. If a member divulges information under duress, and they know in thier heart that they reached the utmost of thier ability, they have stayed within the spirit and intent of the code of conduct. Even if the information they have is no longer current or real time, the propoganda value of an American service member reading a document or confessing to 'war crimes" is still extremly valuable to our enemy.

 

[itsbob]

No, you're a lot confused. This is/ was reality... Most combat forces know torture works, and no matter how strong you are you will succumb to it. ALSO the more important the prisoner, the more excessive the torture will be. 24 hours isn't a limit perse but it gives us enough time to "fix" things that he/ she may be privy to. When someone of importance is captured that has a lot of knowledge, battle plans, defensive positions, signal intel then these things need to be changed and changed QUICKLY. We HOPE that they can last 24 hours under the worst torture imaginable, and if they have 24 hours in their head as a goal, they probably can. That doesn't mean you spill your guts and tell them everything, you still must fight, and endure the best you can, but if you reach a breaking point there are certain things you know to be truthful, but worthless after the 24 hour period. Things as simple as radio call signs, tactical frequencies, passwords, encryption tables.. all of them are good for how long? Normally 24 hours. So you may know the call sign and frequency for the Battalion Commander, and the Company Commander, and artillery assets, and air assets, but if I last 24 hours it's all worthless information to everyone.

 

[Leftrudder]

I dont disagree with you about information becoming OBE by capture or the passing of time. My point was that even 'worthless" or no longer valid information has a value to an enemy captor, that will use your giving up even old information as a tool against the servicemen, and our country.