Miami Heat defeat repeat...

[Larry Gude]

LaBron sealed his own fate as far as becoming an all time NBA great by bailing on Cleveland instead of paying the price and making them a winner, as the greats did with their teams. As I have argued before, it does not matter how many titles he and Wade and Boshe win, it just doesn't stand up to Bird and the Celtics, Magic and the Lakers, MJ and the Bulls, Thomas and the Pistons, Tim and the Spurs and so on.

Now, after being swept for the season by the Bulls after being blown out by the Spurs the other night, they may not be good enough to even get out of the first round.

It's just a bad mix and, honestly, not much of a team in terms of winning a title. Getting almost sad.


OK. I lied. I enjoy them losing. Every time.

 

[thurley42]

 

[BuddyLee]

I don't have much to add to that except its going to be great when the NBA lowers its salary cap in the coming seasons. You think they have bad depth now? Bwhahaha

 

[Otter]

I enjoy them losing. Every time.

 

[Beta84]

I hate hearing all the bullspit comments about how Lebron should have stayed with the team that drafted him and made them a winner. Lets look at it this way.

1) Why should any player be forced to stick with the team he was drafted by? If you have a pick of 30 teams and 1 of them picks you, why can't you play your career in one of the other 29 cities after your time is done? People keep saying "well Kevin Durant resigned with his team" -- yeah, well so did Lebron the first time around. He suffered for 7 years, actually, and gave them every chance they deserved.

2) I don't see how anyone can compare Lebron's teams in Cleveland to MJ's Bulls, Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Thomas's bulls, or any of those. I mean seriously, do you have no concept of who was on those teams?
-MJ's Bulls had another hall of fame player. Ever heard of Scottie Pippen? Rodman is being considered as a hall of famer too. He had some TOP NOTCH accessories on that team (great shooters, rebounders, defenders) and a top notch coach.
-Bird's Celtics also had Parish and McHale, two Hall of famers. That's 3 hall of famers on this team. This team had some other quality pieces and a great coach.
-Magic's Lakers had Kareem Abdul Jabbar, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo, coached by Pat Riley, etc. Don't get me started
-Isiah's Pistons had Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, etc. More great names. But with the glut of good teams (Lakers, Celtics, later the Bulls), these guys only won 1 title I think.

Please tell me how those teams can remotely compare with the teams that James played on. Mo Williams was the best player the Cavs ever acquired to play with James and he was a marginal All Star once. Jamison and Shaq were probably right behind him, and that's well after both of their primes. Cleveland did a pathetic job of assembling "talent" around James. He has better talent on Miami's depth chart with Bibby/Haslem(injured, don't forget!)/Miller/Dampier/Ilgauskas than he ever did in Cleveland, and that's not even including Wade and Bosh.

I think it's pretty lame when everyone considers him a villain because he was tired of a pathetic team making pathetic attempts at trying to build a winner around him and he decided to go elsewhere. How is Cleveland doing this season? 12 wins and last place in the Eastern Conference. Just for a quick comparison, Chicago won 55 games the year after MJ first retired. That's **55** WINS! Without MJ.

The Bulls were a title contender even without the great Michael Jordan. He had quality talent on that team, but he was an amazing player that took a pretty good team and made them other-wordly. Lebron took what is clearly a TERRIBLE Cavs team (remember, pacing for less than 20 wins), and brought them to the best record in the Eastern Conference the last two seasons with 60+ wins. That's +40 wins. Are you saying MJ, Bird, Magic, or Isiah were worth 40+ wins to their team? NO CHANCE! Not because they weren't just as good as James, but because their teams were still playoff caliber without them.

So hey, continue to hate on a guy who made a good career decision. If you were all in his shoes you would have been morons not to do the same thing. Who knows how his next few years will go. Assuming they don't get screwed by some salary cap crap, the core players are all signed long-term and they'll work better together and should eventually win some titles. Lebron had little chance to win titles in Cleveland, so if he wins a few in Miami then he made the right move. You can't blame a guy for wanting to play with some other talented guys and win a championship.

I'm still not sure if people would be hailing him as a hero if Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland. They'd probably still say he wimped out by needing quality help to make his team a champion. Because MJ was a wimp. And Bird was a wimp. And Magic was a wimp. And Isiah was a wimp. I can't believe they all needed other good players on their team to win championships. What losers.

 

[Otter]

I think it's pretty lame when everyone considers him a villain....

It was the way he left Cleveland with his world tour of teams and ESPN special to make his announcement......He wouldn't be getting half the flak he's getting now if he had just said no thanks to Cleveland and moved on without all the fanfare.

 

[thurley42]

Spoken like a true Floridian Beta....lol

 

[Beta84]

It was the way he left Cleveland with his world tour of teams and ESPN special to make his announcement......He wouldn't be getting half the flak he's getting now if he had just said no thanks to Cleveland and moved on without all the fanfare.

His only mistake was that 1 hour TV special. There's nothing wrong with visiting teams and finding the right match. It's not his fault the media followed him around like a hawk. I'm sure he listened to Cleveland's offer.

Spoken like a true Floridian Beta....lol

Hey now, I have had my fair share of crappy sports teams here. Lets take the Florida Panthers. They suck. They just lost a damn good player last year because the team is a perrenial loser and couldn't surround him with the talent he wanted so he could compete for championships. So he left. It happens. I know the Lebron situation is much tougher because he's a local guy that's almost as good as MJ, but it's still a guy who has the right to use free agency to choose where he wants to go. At least he didn't hold his team hostage DURING the season and force a trade like Melo did. To me, that's much worse. So why isn't Melo being criticized like Lebron is? What about Chris Paul, who was doing the same thing during the off season? It's all about the media.

 

[Larry Gude]

1) Why should any player be forced to stick with the team he was drafted by? I don't think they should be forced to do anything

2) I don't see how anyone can compare Lebron's teams in Cleveland to MJ's Bulls, Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Thomas's bulls, or any of those. I mean seriously, do you have no concept of who was on those teams?
-MJ's Bulls had another hall of fame player. Ever heard of Scottie Pippen? Rodman is being considered as a hall of famer too. He had some TOP NOTCH accessories on that team (great shooters, rebounders, defenders) and a top notch coach.
-Bird's Celtics also had Parish and McHale, two Hall of famers. That's 3 hall of famers on this team. This team had some other quality pieces and a great coach.
-Magic's Lakers had Kareem Abdul Jabbar, James Worthy, Bob McAdoo, coached by Pat Riley, etc. Don't get me started
-Isiah's Pistons had Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, etc. More great names. But with the glut of good teams (Lakers, Celtics, later the Bulls), these guys only won 1 title I think.
And each and every one of those teams was built, just like Cleveland could have been.




I think it's pretty lame when everyone considers him a villain because he was tired of a pathetic team making pathetic attempts at trying to build a winner around him and he decided to go elsewhere. Don't consider him a villain, at all. Just a quitter.

The Bulls were a title contender even without the great Michael Jordan. Not until after MJ made them great and that's a simple fact

What people like is the struggle, the striving to achieve greatness, not short cuts.

Sure, Magic was on an already solid team. He made them legend.

Kobe fought to get the pieces he needs.

Thomas and the Pistons struggled for years until they finally made it.

Birds teams weer a bunch of clunky parts that no one else wanted. He made them great.

Jordan was threatening everything he could think of to get better pieces in Chicago. That was a one man show for several years.

Erving ran into a brick wall time and again until getting it done.

Dominic Wilkens, Karl Malone, Iverson, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Ehlo, those guys are legend names because they just kept coming, were always in the hunt.

LaBron is free to take all the short cuts he likes. He simply has to accept that he's eliminated himself from the possibility of earning top tier status of NBA legends and that's fine. I like the competition, the challenge, the heartbreaks and then the chance at true sports glory. He's robbed us all of the Cav's getting in position time and again, suffering defeat and finally making it all the way.

LaBron sold himself short along with the game and the fans.


Good for him! I don't have to like it.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm still not sure if people would be hailing him as a hero if Wade and Bosh went to Cleveland. They'd probably still say he wimped out by needing quality

He didn't need Wade!!! Bosch could have been his Pippen, his Gasol. For crying out loud, he made the finals with a cast of also rans! As it is, are they even gonna get out of the first round? And if they do, sorry, anything less than a title is better than his Cleveland days how???

 

[Otter]

He didn't need Wade!!! Bosch could have been his Pippen, his Gasol. For crying out loud, he made the finals with a cast of also rans! As it is, are they even gonna get out of the first round? And if they do, sorry, anything less than a title is better than his Cleveland days how???

Why bother, Mr Gude??, a guy that wouldn't recognize Utah as the rightful national champion in football a couple years ago is probably not able to see the reasonable argument you present.

 

[Larry Gude]

Why bother, Mr Gude??, a guy that wouldn't recognize Utah as the rightful national champion in football a couple years ago is probably not able to see the reasonable argument you present.

I can make no argument there...

But, I can try!

 

[Baz]

It was the way he left Cleveland with his world tour of teams and ESPN special to make his announcement......He wouldn't be getting half the flak he's getting now if he had just said no thanks to Cleveland and moved on without all the fanfare.

 

[Beta84]

What people like is the struggle, the striving to achieve greatness, not short cuts.

Sure, Magic was on an already solid team. He made them legend.

Kobe fought to get the pieces he needs.

Thomas and the Pistons struggled for years until they finally made it.

Birds teams weer a bunch of clunky parts that no one else wanted. He made them great.

Jordan was threatening everything he could think of to get better pieces in Chicago. That was a one man show for several years.

Erving ran into a brick wall time and again until getting it done.

Dominic Wilkens, Karl Malone, Iverson, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Ehlo, those guys are legend names because they just kept coming, were always in the hunt.

LaBron is free to take all the short cuts he likes. He simply has to accept that he's eliminated himself from the possibility of earning top tier status of NBA legends and that's fine. I like the competition, the challenge, the heartbreaks and then the chance at true sports glory. He's robbed us all of the Cav's getting in position time and again, suffering defeat and finally making it all the way.

LaBron sold himself short along with the game and the fans.


Good for him! I don't have to like it.

You said that Lebron should have waited. Did Kobe wait 7 years? Did MJ wait 7 years? Did ANY of them wait 7 years? With no hope in sight? No, they didn't. The Cavs are nowhere close to a title contender. He's in his prime NOW. He was preparing to sign a 6 year contract, which would have put him into his 30s. If the team still couldn't give him quality players, what then? Too late. Then he would have been criticized for being stupid for staying with a bad franchise and never winning a championship.

Kobe DEMANDED a trade for years until they finally picked up Gasol and started piecing the team together, but they had a great coach, top notch GM, and a great location. James never asked for a trade. Bird had two Hall of Famers on his team and MJ had one (possibly one more coming). I don't see how these were all clunky parts that nobody wanted and I don't see how you can compare this to Lebron's Cavs. If Lebron had been put on the Celtics when Bird was, or the Bulls when MJ was, or the Lakers when Kobe or Magic were, they all would have been champion teams. And how bout this -- I bet he would have won at least 2 titles in place of Isiah with the Pistons. I also have a feeling none of those guys would have made the Cavs a champ, because they're just horrible.

But again, Lebron didn't have the pieces to work with. He made a bunch of nobodies a 60+ win team when they may not be a 20 win team without him. You can only do so much with a cast of nobodies who suck. Those other guys you mention took good teams with great coaches and built champions. Lebron had bad teams with no talent and bad coaching. There's no comparison.

"Dominic Wilkens, Karl Malone, Iverson, Stockton, Barkley, Miller, Ehlo" -- Wilkins isn't a legend other than maybe his slam dunk championship helping him gain a little more mention than he'd get otherwise. He was a big name but people forget about him. Malone and Stockton are always criticized for never winning championships (until Malone bolted to LA). Iverson will be remembered most as a crybaby who wanted to be traded from the 76ers because they couldn't win. Barkley was the biggest crybaby of them all. Miller and Ehlo -- the common NBA fan wouldn't have a clue who you are talking about. That's not a good definition of a legend. None of them are. They were all good/great players that are Hall of Famers. It ends there. It's all about the rings and transcending boundaries. If James wins championships, he will be remembered over any of those guys. Think about the people that are on the first line of legends. They were all great players who won championships, but none of them did it alone. The team put players around those guys to help them win. Cleveland has never done that.

He didn't need Wade!!! Bosch could have been his Pippen, his Gasol. For crying out loud, he made the finals with a cast of also rans! As it is, are they even gonna get out of the first round? And if they do, sorry, anything less than a title is better than his Cleveland days how???

I was being hypothetical. Cleveland probably couldn't have afforded to bring Bosh over there. Why is it OK for Bosh to go to another team but not James? And James never led the Cavs to the finals. Why? Because in the playoffs you need more than just 1 guy to get it done. You need more pieces. It's too much physical demand to do EVERYTHING for the team every night.

As for the Heat, nobody wanted to play them in December. Nobody wanted to play them a couple weeks ago. They're going through a slump. LA was going through a slump earlier this year and now they're doing well. Who knows how the rest of the season will go. Sure, right now they're not looking that great, but most of those games they could have won (minus San Antonio). Will they win the championship? Don't know. Will they make it out of the first round? No idea.

The goal wasn't to win the title this season anyway. All along they said it starts next year. It helps to remember that. They have a few years to work together. 2-3 titles and they'll be happy. Heck, even 1 title and they should be happy even if they underachieved. A title is a title.

Why bother, Mr Gude??, a guy that wouldn't recognize Utah as the rightful national champion in football a couple years ago is probably not able to see the reasonable argument you present.

And TCU this year, right??

 

[Otter]

And TCU this year, right??

you're finally coming around..

 

[Larry Gude]

You said that Lebron should have waited. Did Kobe wait 7 years? Did MJ wait 7 years? Did ANY of them wait 7 years? With no hope in sight? No, they didn't. The Cavs are nowhere close to a title contender.

I think I am not communicating. I don't care what LaBron did or didn't do in terms of pressuring his team to get him help. As far as I am concerned, he's not an elite guy, not even in the class of the guys who never won it all but, but always went down fighting. And that's OK. I am sure he is a fine fellow.

 

[Beta84]

you're finally coming around..

if Utah sucks in the Pac 10 next year, it's just a fluke because they have no talent left. if TCU sucks in the big east in a couple years (doubtful, terrible conference), then it'll be for the same reasons.

I think I am not communicating. I don't care what LaBron did or didn't do in terms of pressuring his team to get him help. As far as I am concerned, he's not an elite guy, not even in the class of the guys who never won it all but, but always went down fighting. And that's OK. I am sure he is a fine fellow.

So I take it you don't think there are any elite guys in the NBA and haven't been for some time? Maybe you consider Kobe elite, but only because of his second set of championships (even though he has great talent surrounding him). It can't be because of his time with Shaq, even though he was a crybaby the entire time in between when the Lakers weren't contending? Actually no, Kobe can't be based on your standards. Do you consider Shaq elite when he had #2 guys like Kobe and Wade (who was more of a 1/1A) for his championship teams and continued to swap teams the entire way through? Nope, Shaq can't be either. I guess there isn't an elite player right now.

James has probably been the best player for years, with only Kobe and Wade coming close and Durant/Rose are just starting to push. He's still young and has better career averages than most of those supposed "legends" you listed.

I'm just failing to understand your arbitrary version of "elite" that has little to do with accomplishments and more to do with some kind of dislike for Lebron. You name elite guys who team swapped and cried their way out of bad situations but criticize Lebron for leaving during free agency when his situation was as bad, if not worse, than any of the aforementioned. I don't get it.