Millions of gallons of sewer water released into Jones Falls.......

Bird Dog

Bird Dog
PREMO Member
I have no point or agenda. I'm just asking two simple questions. If you would rather not answer them, it's fine.
It has nothing to do with OP.....
I've done my little, but insignificant part, but the City of Baltimore, WSSC, and Metcom continue to let millions of gallons of
raw sewage, not storm water into the Bay every year with little or no consequence. Then we spend millions of dollars to "Save the Bay" that does nothing....that's My Point.....
 

NorthBeachPerso

Honorary SMIB
What bill?
The bill for fixing the main pollutant of the Bay, which isn't sewage contrary to what you think. The farmers are already paying it and now it's other property owners' turn.

You said earlier that I needed to keep up. You might wish to try it:
http://www.cbf.org/about-the-bay/issues/dead-zones/nitrogen-phosphorus
http://www.chesapeakebay.net/about/programs/watershed
https://www.epa.gov/chesapeake-bay-tmdl
http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs/Water/TMDL/TMDLImplementation/Pages/FINAL_PhaseII_WIPDocument_Main.aspx
 

Bird Dog

Bird Dog
PREMO Member
The bill for fixing the main pollutant of the Bay, which isn't sewage contrary to what you think. The farmers are already paying it and now it's other property owners' turn.

You said earlier that I needed to keep up. You might wish to try it:
http://www.cbf.org/about-the-bay/issues/dead-zones/nitrogen-phosphorus
http://www.chesapeakebay.net/about/programs/watershed
https://www.epa.gov/chesapeake-bay-tmdl
http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs/Water/TMDL/TMDLImplementation/Pages/FINAL_PhaseII_WIPDocument_Main.aspx
Bull####.....more than one way.....
CBF is a farce
EPA is a failure
MD has failed for 50 years in cleaning up the Bay
MDE is a taxpayer hoax.,,
 

NorthBeachPerso

Honorary SMIB
Bull####.....more than one way.....
CBF is a farce
EPA is a failure
MD has failed for 50 years in cleaning up the Bay
MDE is a taxpayer hoax.,,
Ok, but those are the regs. I doubt you voluntarily put in your state of the art septic system but were forced to do so when you built (or replaced your old one). That's right out of the regs.

As far as sewer spills go, they make the news because they're actually pretty rare. What is impacting the Bay the most is inputs of phosphorus and nitrogen, both of which are present in treated effluent.

That's what the Flush Tax is going to, upgrading current treatment plants to the Enhanced Nutrient Removal (ENR) standards. The Tax also has a component to assist septic users upgrade if they're located in Critical Areas.

Since that's being taken care of the next target is runoff from farms, although that's been going on for a couple or three decades, as well as runoff from yards, buildings and other development. In most cases all runoff has to be contained on the property or released slowly. That's why you're starting to see more green roofs, rain barrels, rain gardens and other landscaping and impoundments on developments.
 

Hannibal

Active Member
I think all of you engineers are missing the point.......
We have spent Billions of dollars to "Clean" up the Bay, but can't afford to fix these Sewage systems that continually "pour", not pump for you engineers, into the Bay.
Who designs these Sh!t systems and why are they not fixed?
Your trying to relate two different aspects. Sewer discharge into the Bay is only a portion (and likely a very small portion) of the impacts associated to the Bay. In reality, the overflow discharge for these storm events quickly become negligible given the amount of effluent vs the amount of volume/spread into the Bay (let alone the decomposition/transition of the actual raw material). Anyhow, the Bay cleanup has numerous parts/pieces and numerous point sources (sewers being one). Runoff/soil water management, drainage, chemical impacts, etc.

As noted in an earlier post, the cost of overhauling these sewer systems is extensive and often times cost prohibitive. Sewer lines are very often the deepest lines underground (therefore requiring the largest excavations/slowest production rates), often located in the middle of roadways (requiring extensive road closures, detours, etc.). They have high 'associated' costs such as utility relocation expenses, road rebuilding costs, etc. Point being, it's not just the cost of putting in the actual line itself. It's all the associated BS that goes with it.

Also keep in mind how the sh!t moves around. You can't just necessarily cut out and remove a section of pipe. If it's gravity, you're usually following the "section" at both ends to a point where the math/elevation works. That can be miles .............

Remember years ago when Georgetown kept having MH's catch on fire and lids blowing off? That wasn't technical error or fault equipment. That was the end result of Georgetown and it's residents refusing to allow their streets to be closed down for Pepco to conduct maintenance/replacement on its underground system. Georgetown couldn't afford the impacts to the storefronts, residents, general population, etc. Had nothing to do with the actual expense of the work.

The #### systems in place in many locales are over a hundred years old. Hell, we still find brick arch sewers. The technology and materials are far more superior now in terms of capacity, flow and isolation. It's a just matter of swapping things out. EPA/MDA is getting more involved now with issuing Consent Decrees orders against jurisdictions/areas in non-compliance - especially when they find evidence of not incorporating the upgrades within the realm of existing/proposed construction contracts (which would be disrupting the area anyhow).
 

Hannibal

Active Member
It has nothing to do with OP.....
I've done my little, but insignificant part, but the City of Baltimore, WSSC, and Metcom continue to let millions of gallons of
raw sewage, not storm water into the Bay every year with little or no consequence. Then we spend millions of dollars to "Save the Bay" that does nothing....that's My Point.....
These aren't the only offenders. Any large scale municipality does this. Even the small scale / localized treatment centers utilize this fail safe. Until systems have built in reserve capacity - in the form of underground tunnels, large scale holding reservoirs - this will continue.

And you keep pushing the part of raw sewage/storm water whereas I believe these overflow conditions are the result of large scale rainfall events where the flow of sewage is increased due to the influx of storm water. This is driven by combined storm sewers (which are being phased out) or due to degraded closed sewer systems where water enters the system and it shouldn't (again, being addressed). In a true closed / only sewage system - rain fall events do not have an influence and do not increase flow/volumes.
 

Hannibal

Active Member
Since that's being taken care of the next target is runoff from farms, although that's been going on for a couple or three decades, as well as runoff from yards, buildings and other development. In most cases all runoff has to be contained on the property or released slowly. That's why you're starting to see more green roofs, rain barrels, rain gardens and other landscaping and impoundments on developments.
This is being applied at all levels of construction.

I just built a house with fancy new septic system with all kinds of bells/whistles, drainage wells allowing gutter water to enter into well built underground, rain barrels on the back side of the house, strategic vegetation to capture flow, etc. All mandated.

New construction projects carry substantial gov't regulation now in terms of storm water management. Restrictions on amount of land you can disturb at one time, absolutely no allowances for drainage to offsite (all must be contained), substantial amount of controls now (SWM drainage/conversion ponds, check dams, stabilization requirements, etc.). Finished products include bio-retention facilities, specific grasses/soils, holding/seepage ponds, etc. All designed to keep rainfall on site and not allow travel to adjacent properties/watersheds, etc. Street work and buildings are all going green with various LEED initiatives, etc. Some impressive stuff (at a huge expense of course).

Hell, if the project requires you destroy non-impervious ground (think paving over existing earth), you now how to offset that (demo an existing parking lot no longer in use) or pay a fee in lieu. Contracts are incentivized/dis-incentivized for similar aspects. It's huge industry now.
 

NorthBeachPerso

Honorary SMIB
This is being applied at all levels of construction.

I just built a house with fancy new septic system with all kinds of bells/whistles, drainage wells allowing gutter water to enter into well built underground, rain barrels on the back side of the house, strategic vegetation to capture flow, etc. All mandated.

New construction projects carry substantial gov't regulation now in terms of storm water management. Restrictions on amount of land you can disturb at one time, absolutely no allowances for drainage to offsite (all must be contained), substantial amount of controls now (SWM drainage/conversion ponds, check dams, stabilization requirements, etc.). Finished products include bio-retention facilities, specific grasses/soils, holding/seepage ponds, etc. All designed to keep rainfall on site and not allow travel to adjacent properties/watersheds, etc. Street work and buildings are all going green with various LEED initiatives, etc. Some impressive stuff (at a huge expense of course).

Hell, if the project requires you destroy non-impervious ground (think paving over existing earth), you now how to offset that (demo an existing parking lot no longer in use) or pay a fee in lieu. Contracts are incentivized/dis-incentivized for similar aspects. It's huge industry now.
Thank you for fleshing out my post(s).
Is it amazing or scary how many people don't know what they don't know?
 
Top