Modern driving aids....... I have seen the future....

[glhs837]

So, wifes new ride has all the mod cons. Lane departure warning and assist, forward collision warning with brake assist, adaptive cruise control, self parking (both parallel and perpendicular), engine stop start. Have clocked almost 1,000 miles. Since these techs are the base layer for autonomous cars, I've been curious to try them in the real world. Have not tried the parking yet. But the 500 mile ride home from the purchase in Ohion was very educational. Observations follow.


1. The engineers have done a ton to make these systems as unobtrusive as possible. Good work. But since they work best when fully engaged, the below matters.

2. The average driver I think is never going to actually use these systems as they should be and not just disable them or use them in minimized mode unless the receive specific training.

3. Knowing what they are doing, and the logic behind them doing what they do requires more thought than mot folks will ever put towards driving.

4. Lane keeping works amazing, really surprised at how discriminating it is. Even sorta forces you to use your signal, since if you dont, the system is giving the warning adjustments to the wheel as you break from one lane to another. I even, on one deserted stretch, went hands off the wheel at 70 (only one half inch off). Truck drifted over, system pulled it back into lane. Then gently drifted over (road crowning) to the right, where it corrected back towards center, a loud chime sounded and an all caps warning appeared in the center display "PLEASE KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE STEERING WHEEL"

5. Blind Spot works flawlessly, integrated with turn signals, loud chime if you signal a lane change when it detects someone in the blind spot.

6. Adaptive cruise very cool, big threat is someone getting involved. Set it to two car lengths on Rt 5 in Great Mills, never had to touch the throttle or brake all the way to the 234 turn in L-town. Can shift lanes, truck will get up to preset speed, unless there's a car in front, in which case it backs off to maintain the set distance.

All in all, very impressed. If we refuse to teach drivers, I say load'em up with this stuff. Keep them out of my bubble.

Oh, and the machine all of this tech is packed in? A Jeep.

 

[Larry Gude]

Here is the problem as I see it:

$1 trillion


That is the annual bill for auto repair from fender benders to larger wrecks. I am full on board with machines taking over car operation. I have ZERO doubt in mind that, on the whole, it will save MANY lives and HUGE dollars. However, THAT is the problem. It's like a cure for cancer. Better yet, a prevention for it. We would have to find a way for ALL the people who make their living off of auto wrecks to find something else to do. I can't even find a decent stat on how much we spend on auto insurance. If we spend a trillion to fix cars then, obviously, insurance companies being in business, ie, profitable, insurance costs a trillion plus insurance industry profits.

How do we justify insurance rates as accidents, massively, decline in occurrence and cost?

Now, add to this the BIGGIE; Lawyers. I can't find any stats on that either; how much we spend a year on legal fees concerning auto accidents.

So, from the trillion in repairs, we add legal fees and then insurance industry profits. Those are HUGE roadblocks to widespread automatic cars.

 

[rhenderson]

Thank you OP for the observations. The next steps in this process is linking the speed control to the GPS system to prohibit exceeding the speed limit.

Larry, as long as there are non-auto driving vehicles there will continue to be accidents. Now the auto repair shops/body shops will require more and more IT training and diagnostic tools. Lawyers arguments will simply focus more on defects claims of defective software/improper programming/ etc.

More software in the vehicles allows for more hacking possibilities. The Government is already checking out claims by one hacker that they were able to access the speed controls on a commercial airliner. It is just a matter of time before someone figures out how to access auto software systems through the internet/GPS satellites, etc. Prime target for ransomware.

 

[Larry Gude]

Thank you OP for the observations. The next steps in this process is linking the speed control to the GPS system to prohibit exceeding the speed limit.

Larry, as long as there are non-auto driving vehicles there will continue to be accidents. Now the auto repair shops/body shops will require more and more IT training and diagnostic tools. Lawyers arguments will simply focus more on defects claims of defective software/improper programming/ etc.

More software in the vehicles allows for more hacking possibilities. The Government is already checking out claims by one hacker that they were able to access the speed controls on a commercial airliner. It is just a matter of time before someone figures out how to access auto software systems through the internet/GPS satellites, etc. Prime target for ransomware.

All good points but I would argue that we drive so poorly, in general, that auto systems, whatever their flaws, will, as the OP indicates, dramatically reduce accidents. And I submit that that reduction, potential reduction, means it will happen very slowly. All those people will pay to not be put out of business.

 

[RPMDAD]

I drive very low tech vehicles. 2003 CHEVY Cavalier and a 2004 Toyota PU. They both have manual windows, and manual door locks. The chevy has am/fm single cd player, the toyota has manual windows and door locks, and am/fm cassette player in it. I love these cars and don't need any more modern conveniences in them, they both run great. I can pass on most of this new modern crap, however i do kind of like the idea of cruise control, if you are on a long stretch of 95 or something.

 

[glhs837]

Keep in mind, all these systems can, as of now, by bypassed and overridden. Same thing would have to hold true for any speed controls. The times you NEED to break the speed limit are few, but the first time it caused a death becuase some phsyco ex gamed the system to corner a domestic abuse victim, it would be on. I dont mind if it gives me a beep whenI do so, in fact, just found an option in the nav menu that does just that, alerts the driver when they exceed the speed limit. And it's so good, the nav shows a small speed limit sign on it, boy was out on his fam drive on the new ride, and we checked it at the 40-50 shift south of St Marys City, was one second off, thats all.

Larry, got any buggy whips you need mended?

 

[glhs837]

I drive very low tech vehicles. 2003 CHEVY Cavalier and a 2004 Toyota PU. They both have manual windows, and manual door locks. The chevy has am/fm single cd player, the toyota has manual windows and door locks, and am/fm cassette player in it. I love these cars and don't need any more modern conveniences in them, they both run great. I can pass on most of this new modern crap, however i do kind of like the idea of cruise control, if you are on a long stretch of 95 or something.

A real shift when the wife and I take the 88 Samurai to the transer station

 

[rhenderson]

Another issue will be the vehicles reporting back to insurers/law enforcement, especially regarding speeding. Some insurers are already using the technology under guise of "reduced rates". The real pay off for them is the ability to identify habitual offenders and use that information to cancel those policies before liability occurs. The biggest delay in implication will be the public's reluctance to give up what they perceive as a freedom to drive according to THEIR judgement. Attitudes will change slowly as the population continues to increase. The world population has double since 1968 - just 47 years. As the population increases, society will make more and more demands to reduce risky behavior by individuals and using driving aids such as the ones listed will be increasingly mandated by public opinion and then by law.

 

[Larry Gude]

Another issue will be the vehicles reporting back to insurers/law enforcement, especially regarding speeding. Some insurers are already using the technology under guise of "reduced rates". The real pay off for them is the ability to identify habitual offenders and use that information to cancel those policies before liability occurs. The biggest delay in implication will be the public's reluctance to give up what they perceive as a freedom to drive according to THEIR judgement. Attitudes will change slowly as the population continues to increase. The world population has double since 1968 - just 47 years. As the population increases, society will make more and more demands to reduce risky behavior by individuals and using driving aids such as the ones listed will be increasingly mandated by public opinion and then by law.

You offer an American a $.50 discount and he'll give up his mom. And I don't think insurers will use it to cancel policies. They'll use it to charge more.

The entire point of my first post about the trillion dollars in car repairs standing in the way of much safer auto driven cars is that we're not a nation that wants to prevent problems. We're a nation that likes really expensive fixes when things break. It's not about reducing risky behavior. It's about appearing to while charging more.

 

[glhs837]

Another issue will be the vehicles reporting back to insurers/law enforcement, especially regarding speeding. Some insurers are already using the technology under guise of "reduced rates". The real pay off for them is the ability to identify habitual offenders and use that information to cancel those policies before liability occurs. The biggest delay in implication will be the public's reluctance to give up what they perceive as a freedom to drive according to THEIR judgement. Attitudes will change slowly as the population continues to increase. The world population has double since 1968 - just 47 years. As the population increases, society will make more and more demands to reduce risky behavior by individuals and using driving aids such as the ones listed will be increasingly mandated by public opinion and then by law.

First implementation will be the use of such systems to lt drivers inside a certain area know about upcoming emergency vehicles. My old radar detector did this and it was pretty nice. Ambulances and fire trucks, I quite often got the alert from the detector before I saw the emergency vehicle. Eventually, I would envision such being used to trigger automatic pullovers for vehicles in the path of emergency vehicles. Not sure drivers will ever accept a vehicle that reports them for speeding.

 

[Done_Wrong]

The new technology does come with a price. A friend has a Subaru with the eye feature. Last month when a rock hit the windshield the replacement was over $1K and the repair place explained that with the new windshield install the eye unit would have to be calibrated by the manufacturer/dealer. If someone doesn’t make that effort and expense, can you imagine the lawyers fun if there ever was an accident and the device was “certified”?
Turns out the dealer (Waldorf) didn’t know how to complete the repair and had to order a machine then get trained and the calibration took 3 days and exceeded $500. They even told the customer it would not be covered by insurance (false). I think the moral is with all the tech packages on cars you may want to consider a lower deductible on your insurance.

My last windshield replacement was less than my deductible so I never made a claim, it seems those days may be gone.

 

[glhs837]

The new technology does come with a price. A friend has a Subaru with the eye feature. Last month when a rock hit the windshield the replacement was over $1K and the repair place explained that with the new windshield install the eye unit would have to be calibrated by the manufacturer/dealer. If someone doesn’t make that effort and expense, can you imagine the lawyers fun if there ever was an accident and the device was “certified”?
Turns out the dealer (Waldorf) didn’t know how to complete the repair and had to order a machine then get trained and the calibration took 3 days and exceeded $500. They even told the customer it would not be covered by insurance (false). I think the moral is with all the tech packages on cars you may want to consider a lower deductible on your insurance.

My last windshield replacement was less than my deductible so I never made a claim, it seems those days may be gone.

From what I'm reading, the Jeeps windshield isn't so bad. And this model has been out for a while, so that stuff should be laying flat. think I will call usaa and ask about that though.

 

[GURPS]

I can't even find a decent stat on how much we spend on auto insurance. If we spend a trillion to fix cars then, obviously, insurance companies being in business, ie, profitable, insurance costs a trillion plus insurance industry profits.

How do we justify insurance rates as accidents, massively, decline in occurrence and cost?

automatic cars will have other issues to sue over ...
... insurance rates will not drop that much in the next 50 yrs [too many NON automatic cars on the road]



besides no one pines over Buggy Whip Makers or Elevator Operators
[I knew a building in DC that still has one : Manual Elevator - Laotian woman lives in the basement w/Family her husband is [was] the Maintenance Man]

 

[GURPS]

More software in the vehicles allows for more hacking possibilities.

my understand is cars have already been breached
.. with no direct connection to brakes and steering - cars have been accelerated / stopped or moved in lanes during hack testing

 

[GURPS]

The next steps in this process is linking the speed control to the GPS system to prohibit exceeding the speed limit.

... my last GPS a Garmin Nuvi 255 had all the street speeds programed in, and displayed the corner

you would only need GPS for street location the speed sensor in the speedometer could handle the input

 

[glhs837]

my understand is cars have already been breached
.. with no direct connection to brakes and steering - cars have been accelerated / stopped or moved in lanes during hack testing

Usually when you dive into this sort of thing, it's not as scary as you might think. the brakes and steering thing, that was done by a couple of guys inside the car, physically plugged into the OBDII port. which of course means you can raise the possibility of getting into these systems remotely, but AFAIK, nobody has actually demoed this sort of tech. And then you get into the actual risk analysis, where you do a probability/severity calculation.
Unless you are on a CIA/NSA hit list, odds of you ever being affected by such an attack drops down to the "improbable" part of the chart.

 

[Larry Gude]

Usually when you dive into this sort of thing, it's not as scary as you might think. the brakes and steering thing, that was done by a couple of guys inside the car, physically plugged into the OBDII port. which of course means you can raise the possibility of getting into these systems remotely, but AFAIK, nobody has actually demoed this sort of tech. And then you get into the actual risk analysis, where you do a probability/severity calculation.
Unless you are on a CIA/NSA hit list, odds of you ever being affected by such an attack drops down to the "improbable" part of the chart.

I remember hearing about fly by wire for the first time in commercial aircraft and thinking 'not no way, not no how..." Over time, I learned that something like 90% of fatal accidents are simple human error and it started sounding reasonable.

Now, motorcycles, cars, are already 'fly by wire'. We'll get used to it.

 

[glhs837]

I remember hearing about fly by wire for the first time in commercial aircraft and thinking 'not no way, not no how..." Over time, I learned that something like 90% of fatal accidents are simple human error and it started sounding reasonable.

Now, motorcycles, cars, are already 'fly by wire'. We'll get used to it.

Charger was my first ride with no physical connection between the throttle pedal and the throttle body, and really, no difference. Drove the Renegade and the Escape, both of which have electronic steering, and I would venture to say well over %95 of the motoring public would never know that there is nothing connecting the steering wheel to the tires other than wires to a box.

 

[GURPS]

.... that was done by a couple of guys inside the car, physically plugged into the OBDII port.

which of course means you can raise the possibility of getting into these systems remotely, but AFAIK, nobody has actually demoed this sort of tech.

Ah yeah, that maybe what I read
... but still
... unlock the car, attach a remote access gizmo .....

Unless you are on a CIA/NSA hit list, odds of you ever being affected by such an attack drops down to the "improbable" part of the chart.

well there is that .... unless were are talking political assassination


- but even that is generally the realm of Hollywood
- the next Mission Impossible

 

[glhs837]

If it were that easy, those same guys woulda done that, I mean my OBDII Bluetooth adapter is the size of a pack of gum, and has a range that would allow a car next door to be in the loop. I suspect there is some part of being connected that allows connections a BT link won't allow. And honestly, given the willingness of our (or some allied counties) govt to slap a magnetic limpet mine on a car door to remove a scientist, and the sorts of capabilities revealed by Stuxnet, if the best of our tame bad guys don't have this, I would say it simply cannot be done. but I would bet they do. I usually figure the blackest tech to be 10 years or so ahead of what we see or hear about.