New carbines outperform M4 in dust test

[nhboy]

"The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent “extreme dust test” to demonstrate the M4’s reliability compared to three newer carbines.

Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC’s M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.

When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed “significantly worse” than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times."

Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test - Army News, opinions, editorials, news from Iraq, photos, reports - Army Times

 

[RadioPatrol]

We all know AR-15, M-16, M4 are crap that need constant cleaning ..... the Military needs to get the hot gases out of the chamber / bolt area by adopting the HK gas tube / piston mod ............

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Some weapons experts maintain the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the firing mechanism of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication, causing excessive wear on parts.

 

[AK-74me]

What they fail to tell you is that the XM8 melted on the last round fired.

 

[RadioPatrol]

 

[AK-74me]

Related story

Israeli-Made Tavor Assault Rifle to Replace M-16 Among Infantry
by Ezra HaLevi

After several years of trial usage by the IDF’s Givati Brigade, the Israeli-made Tavor assault rifle will be deployed among infantry units throughout Judea and Samaria in the near future.

Soldiers who enlisted November, 2006 and later are now being deployed as the first batch of recruits to be trained with the lightweight, futuristic weapon.

The Tavor is specially designed for urban combat. Its center of gravity is located in the rear and is much lighter and shorter-barreled than the US-made M-16, currently the weapon of choice in most of the IDF.



The Tavor’s body is made from alloy metal substitutes and is very well insulated so that it does not heat up after prolonged firing. The Tavor is not equipped with normal metal sights that require closing one eye for shooting. Instead, the Tavor uses a laser sight in which the soldier sees both the target and the red dot, which, when aligned, will result in a direct hit.
During the past years of trials with the Tavor, more than a few problems were identified. This led the head of the Givati Brigade to decide at the last minute that the August ’06 recruits would continue to use M-16s due to jamming issues with the Tavor. The latest generation of the weapon, however, has resolved the issues and the Golani and Kfir Brigades have now received Tavors.

Four versions of the gun are available – the basic assault rifle configuration, a sharp-shooting squad weapon, a short commando version and a micro version for security detail and special forces. The commando version weighs 2.8 kg (6.2 pounds) compared with the Uzi's 3.7 kg (8.2 pounds) and M-16's 3.4 kg (7.5 pounds).

"The Tavor would be useful anywhere where close quarters battle is the rule, and from vehicles," Charles Cutshaw, firearms editor at Jane's International Defense Review Magazine, said. “It has large vents to prevent dust clogs and sights allowing the shooter to aim with both eyes open. The Tavor spells the end, locally, of the M-16, a staple assault rifle supplied to Israel since the early 1970s as part of Washington's annual defense grants.”

The M-16 has long been the subject of complaints by IDF soldiers. It was designed for Vietnam-style tropical climates and frequently jams in the desert. In addition, most of the rifles Israel received from the US were army surplus and in need of refurbishing. Despite this, the M-16 replaced Israeli-made Uzi and Galil guns, which were sold mostly to clients in Africa and South America.

Indian and Georgian special forces, as well as the Columbia army and police forces, have already ordered and phased in the Tavor.

Due to the huge number of M-16s already in the IDF's armories, as well as the cost of producing Tavors, the complete replacement of the M-16 with the Israeli-made weapon is still far off.

I highlighted 2 statements that I find funny. The first, I just want to laugh because isn't that the goal of any type of sight and the second, ask the guys that first got A1's in Vietnam if they think it was design for there.

 

[LordStanley]

I highlighted 2 statements that I find funny. The first, I just want to laugh because isn't that the goal of any type of sight and the second, ask the guys that first got A1's in Vietnam if they think it was design for there.

That Tavor is an ugly looking weapon!

 

[AK-74me]

That Tavor is an ugly looking weapon!

Yeah it is, I hate bullpups for the most part, plus it has no real trigger guard and no BUIS so that is a fail right there in my book no matter how well it shoots or reliable it is.

 

[RadioPatrol]

I heard the Tavor was a piece of crap ........ unfortunately i am lacking a link to the article I read last month.

 

[Larry Gude]

Think of...

...the dollars that would be saved in acquisition and development and maint/repair and, golly, improved battlefield performance if we just bought a boat load or two of ak47's.

 

[AK-74me]

...the dollars that would be saved in acquisition and development and maint/repair and, golly, improved battlefield performance if we just bought a boat load or two of ak47's.

The advantage of the AK is it's loose fit provides for alot greater tolerances and therefore more reliabilty, I think they are awesome for a SHTF scenario, as for actual combat where accurate shots are needed I'd take the M16/AR platform.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

The advantage of the AK is it's loose fit provides for alot greater tolerances and therefore more reliabilty, I think they are awesome for a SHTF scenario, as for actual combat where accurate shots are needed I'd take the M16/AR platform.

...but in the sandbox, what's a typical engagement range, 100 feet, maybe 100 yards? For the vast majority of troopers using an AR type weapon, patrolling, kicking in doors, it's all about going bang every time, right? You could shoot me dead all day long out to what, 100-150 yards, with an AK and open sites or an aimpoint or similar, right?

I mean, I don't expect units that do a lot of longer shooting to use an ineffective weapon, I'm just saying the ar is NOT a good choice. A guy I kinda know says that all you need to do to make the ar better is take the iron sites and put a new platform under it or words to that affect.

Hell, if it was up to me, they'd all be carrying m-14's!

 

[AK-74me]

...but in the sandbox, what's a typical engagement range, 100 feet, maybe 100 yards? For the vast majority of troopers using an AR type weapon, patrolling, kicking in doors, it's all about going bang every time, right? You could shoot me dead all day long out to what, 100-150 yards, with an AK and open sites or an aimpoint or similar, right?

I mean, I don't expect units that do a lot of longer shooting to use an ineffective weapon, I'm just saying the ar is NOT a good choice. A guy I kinda know says that all you need to do to make the ar better is take the iron sites and put a new platform under it or words to that affect.

Hell, if it was up to me, they'd all be carrying m-14's!

I think the best approach to it is to pick the right weapon for the job and don't worry about adhearing to conventional thinking. I think all troops going into combat should be trained on the operation of AK's along with the primary rifle (M-16 or their variants), of course certain ones will be trained on SAW's or whatever else they might be designated to carry.

I have seen AK's being used by U.S forces, also there are some m-14's floating around specifically with some of the SF units who use them as quasi-sniper rifles.

I hate getting into an AK vs AR battle because they are both good at certain things and it is really an apple to oranges comparison. I own both and like both for different reasons.

 

[Larry Gude]

Then...

I think the best approach to it is to pick the right weapon for the job and don't worry about adhearing to conventional thinking. I think all troops going into combat should be trained on the operation of AK's along with the primary rifle (M-16 or their variants), of course certain ones will be trained on SAW's or whatever else they might be designated to carry.

I have seen AK's being used by U.S forces, also there are some m-14's floating around specifically with some of the SF units who use them as quasi-sniper rifles.

I hate getting into an AK vs AR battle because they are both good at certain things and it is really an apple to oranges comparison. I own both and like both for different reasons.

...let's agree to not turn it into a battle and just look at the merits.

I own neither but have fired both numerous times. Without fail, all the ar variants, sooner later, seem to choke whether it be a magazine issue or a jam or gummed up. The ak variants just seem to work better and I understand the point about being built loser; makes perfect sense.

I think the AR round is basically too small.
I think the issues in terms of maintenance are better for the AK.
I think in a protracted gun fight, the AK is less likely to have an issue.

I would argue that those three issues are the primary concerns and that those three are apples to apples. Yes, no, maybe so?

 

[AK-74me]

...let's agree to not turn it into a battle and just look at the merits.

I own neither but have fired both numerous times. Without fail, all the ar variants, sooner later, seem to choke whether it be a magazine issue or a jam or gummed up. The ak variants just seem to work better and I understand the point about being built loser; makes perfect sense.

I think the AR round is basically too small.
I think the issues in terms of maintenance are better for the AK.
I think in a protracted gun fight, the AK is less likely to have an issue.

I would argue that those three issues are the primary concerns and that those three are apples to apples. Yes, no, maybe so?

Well ok, yes it would be great to have a .30 cal round that is the standard issue, but there are advantages to the smaller round too. Specifically weight, capacity and fired more accuratley in general. Yes the larger round is a better peneatrator and creates a better wound.

The AK will beat the AR in function everytime in dirty and less than optimal environments.

But what you don't even include in your list which the AR has an overwhelming advantage is accuracy, the AR platform is much more inheritenly accurate than the AK.

I'd like to see a good piston driven AR platform that is chambered in caliber somewhere between 5.56 and 7.62 that is proven reliable. Something like the H&K 416 chambered in 6.8mm?????

 

[Larry Gude]

The let's discuss...

But what you don't even include in your list which the AR has an overwhelming advantage is accuracy, the AR platform is much more inheritenly accurate than the AK.

...accuracy.

If I recall, my stepson said they had to put some rounds on a man sized silhouette in basic at 300 yards which I've never even tried with either.

So, my question, how bad is an AK v. an AR at given ranges?

Is there any meaningful difference at 100 yards and under? 150? 200? Etc...

 

[AK-74me]

...accuracy.

If I recall, my stepson said they had to put some rounds on a man sized silhouette in basic at 300 yards which I've never even tried with either.

So, my question, how bad is an AK v. an AR at given ranges?

Is there any meaningful difference at 100 yards and under? 150? 200? Etc...

AK's vary greatly, WASR's for example are not very accurate at all and you could see alot of misses at a man size target at 100-200 yds. Yugo M70's on the other hand are fairly accurate and can be expected to hit a man sized target out to 300yds. ( but no where near as consistently as the AR platform)

Another advantage of the AR platform is it can be fit with any type of accessory or attachement imaginable.

Ak-74's are more accurate and a flatter shooter but then you are back to the same sized round as the AR shoots.

 

[LordStanley]

...the dollars that would be saved in acquisition and development and maint/repair and, golly, improved battlefield performance if we just bought a boat load or two of ak47's.

We dont really need to purchase any, if we kept the ones we collected from the dead insurgents our soldiers killed.

I may be guessing, but doesnt our military destroy enemy weapons.

Think of all the Ak's we could have right now

 

[LordStanley]

speaking of the devils

SpikedHumor.com » Ak47 Versus The M16 » SpikedHumor.com

 

[Larry Gude]

Thanks...

speaking of the devils

SpikedHumor.com » Ak47 Versus The M16 » SpikedHumor.com

...for that!

 

[Tomahawk202]

I have been a proponent of doing what they did in Israel, and take the AK, AR, FN and some other things, and piece them all together and produce one of the most successful weapons the world has ever seen, the Galil. (sp)
I know for a fact that there are better upgrades coming out for the M4, like see through mags ( was a big supporter ), and a match grade trigger. Chrome lined barrels, and maybe a free floater or two. And not just that, but getting away from the conventional mentaility and training all of their soldiers on a host of different weapons, not just ONE. That's the whole Soviet style training that we have had such a hard time coming away from recently.

Also, you guys need to realize that not EVERY war will be fought in the desert. We still have, ( last time I checked ) winter and arctic enemies, and also jungles and tropics. So the weapon to replace the 16/4 needs to be reliable in ALL environments, and so I can kind of understand where that pencil pushing general is concerned. Once we develop a weapon that meets all of those criteria, and alot more I am not even listing, then maybe, just maybe we are ready to replace the 16/4.

Oh, and we used the 14 not as a " quasi sniper rifle " but as a "designated marksman" rifle. Even used it to clear some houses, when the 4 jammed up. ....