Ninth Circuit Rejects Religious Freedom Challenge to California Closure, One Judge Dissents

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Judge Daniel Collins dissented, also reaching the merits:
I conclude that Plaintiffs have established a very strong likelihood of success on the merits of their Free Exercise claim….
As a threshold matter, the State contends that, in light of the ongoing pandemic, the constitutional standards that would normally govern our review of a Free Exercise claim should not be applied. "Although the Constitution is not suspended during a state of emergency," the State tells us, "constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted 'as the safety of the general public may demand'" (quoting Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905))…. As the State sees it, there is no "reason why Jacobson would not extend to the First Amendment and other constitutional provisions" (emphasis added).
I am unable to agree with this argument, which seems to me to be fundamentally inconsistent with our constitutional order. Cf. Sterling v. Constantin (1932) ("If this extreme position could be deemed to be well taken, it is manifest that the fiat of a state Governor, and not the Constitution of the United States, would be the supreme law of the land; that the restrictions of the Federal Constitution upon the exercise of state power would be but impotent phrases[.]")…. Nothing in Jacobson supports the view that an emergency displaces normal constitutional standards. Rather, Jacobson provides that an emergency may justify temporary constraints within those standards…. Jacobson merely rejected what we would now call a "substantive due process" challenge to a compulsory vaccination requirement, holding that such a mandate "was within the State's police power." Jacobson's deferential standard of review is appropriate in that limited context. It might have been relevant here if Plaintiffs were asserting a comparable substantive due process claim, but they are not.

https://reason.com/2020/05/23/ninth-circuit-rejects-religious-freedom-challenge-to-california-closure-one-judge-dissents/
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
A lot of people compared the COVID "sacrifices" to WWII. This is complete BS. Americans volunteered to die battling threats to our liberties. Now Americans are being forced to give up our liberties to battle a virus. There is no sacrifice in being forced to do something. The media that incessantly promotes these tyrannical restrictions have no problem exercising their 1st amendment rights while promoting the forbidding of another 1st amendment right.

Our governments have effectively gotten every level of our law enforcement to cooperate with them in quashing our liberties. Very scary times.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Our governments have effectively gotten every level of our law enforcement to cooperate with them in quashing our liberties. Very scary times.
What we've seen unfold pretty much debunks that long-held supposition along the lines of "We'll never fall under a totalitarian government..because our military and law enforcement folks would never go along with that". Very scary times indeed...and sadly enlightening.
 

22AcaciaAve

Active Member
A lot of people compared the COVID "sacrifices" to WWII. This is complete BS. Americans volunteered to die battling threats to our liberties. Now Americans are being forced to give up our liberties to battle a virus. There is no sacrifice in being forced to do something. The media that incessantly promotes these tyrannical restrictions have no problem exercising their 1st amendment rights while promoting the forbidding of another 1st amendment right.

Our governments have effectively gotten every level of our law enforcement to cooperate with them in quashing our liberties. Very scary times.
Many volunteered, but the military draft was also in effect. That was not volunteering, that was being told you have to go fight. In fact, the draft was in effect during the Korean war and the Vietnam war. Many sacrificed their lives only after being told by their government they had to go to war.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
In the "Home" series of books (10 in all) that chronicle a post-apocalyptic America, the author has large and well-equipped DHS "forces" initially taking over governance and forcing everyone they can round up in to large concentration camps. In those, all rights are stripped. Detainees are given job assignments, clothes, food and shelter and are never allowed outside the camp enclosure. Violations of any rules are dealt with harshly by camp goons.

They are resisted by pockets of people that organize to defend ...and fend for..themselves. Recovery and freedom from the DHS comes as veterans and some units of the armed forces organize resistance and kinetic actions that eventually give them the upper hand. Civilian law enforcement characters and actions throughout the story are randomly on both sides or the middle.

Based on what we're seeing now...I'd have to say the author of the "Home" series may prove to be remarkably prescient.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Many volunteered, but the military draft was also in effect. That was not volunteering, that was being told you have to go fight. In fact, the draft was in effect during the Korean war and the Vietnam war. Many sacrificed their lives only after being told by their government they had to go to war.
The draft was an insurance policy. The vast majority of able men were ready and willing to fight in WWII. This country was infuriated with Japan. And they knew the threat of Nazism.

But, I didn't make the comparison. I only pointed it out. I'm trying to point out what sacrifice really is: it's not a means to give up liberty to answer to a call; it's a means to be willing to die to preserve liberty.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
..... the author has large and well-equipped DHS "forces" initially taking over governance ....

James Wesley Rawles has Eurocrats show up in the shores of the US in the guise of UN Assistance sweeping through America after and Economic Collapse in Patriots
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
James Wesley Rawles has Eurocrats show up in the shores of the US in the guise of UN Assistance sweeping through America after and Economic Collapse in Patriots
There is some of that in the A.American "Home" books too. But I think the Home series is more "accurate"..since the Europeans have nothing more than token military capabilities these days.
 

SkylarkTempest

Active Member
The draft was an insurance policy. The vast majority of able men were ready and willing to fight in WWII. This country was infuriated with Japan. And they knew the threat of Nazism.

But, I didn't make the comparison. I only pointed it out. I'm trying to point out what sacrifice really is: it's not a means to give up liberty to answer to a call; it's a means to be willing to die to preserve liberty.
According to the National WWII Museum (https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-us-military-numbers), 61.2% were drafted. Some volunteered, but most were drafted. I wasn't able to find any data on whether the "vast majority of able men were ready and willing to fight" in WWII, but I did find information regarding draft dodging or evasion during the Vietnam War. It was a widespread practice, indicating that many were not willing to fight that particular war. Either way you slice it, the draft is the government compelling you to sacrifice.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
But I think the Home series is more "accurate"..since the Europeans have nothing more than token military capabilities these days.
Fair Enough ... in Patriots IIRC, the coasts had been largely taken over by remnants of the FED .... as the fly over states were largely abandon or ignored until the food started running out the rag tag collection of Europeans shows up under the guise of UN Assistance
 

22AcaciaAve

Active Member
The draft was an insurance policy. The vast majority of able men were ready and willing to fight in WWII. This country was infuriated with Japan. And they knew the threat of Nazism.

But, I didn't make the comparison. I only pointed it out. I'm trying to point out what sacrifice really is: it's not a means to give up liberty to answer to a call; it's a means to be willing to die to preserve liberty.
I agree that most people, even the ones drafted, were ready and willing to fight in WWII. Not so much with Vietnam. I was just pointing out that government has stepped on freedoms long before this lock down. I can think of no more of an egregious trampling of one's freedom than for government to say forget about your plans and your life, you go fight because we told you to! I don't think the draft will ever come back again, with good reason. And just to be clear, the men and women who choose to be in the military have my total support. They are the best that America has. But I don't think the government ever had any right to force people to go into the military and fight a war. That's the kind of thinking that led to people leaving England and founding America in the first place.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
But I don't think the government ever had any right to force people to go into the military and fight a war. That's the kind of thinking that led to people leaving England and founding America in the first place.
That is a debatable point. Our constitution doesn't directly talk about a "draft" or "conscription". Our government does have the constitutional authority to raise an army and navy. And there is nothing that even allows for a standing army. The founders spoke often about the dangers of having a long-standing military; that we should only stand up a military during time of war. But, with today's military technologies, and the training required to use it, it would be impossible to stand up a military at a moment' notice and get them trained on the various forms of weapons, planes, vehicles, and such...

Forcing people into the military does create potential animosity in those who don't want to be there. I don't want to fight next to someone who is angry about being forced to be where they don't want to be. Given that, and our right to not have government force us to live a life we don't choose, I am with you that the draft is not a fair solution to establishing a fighting force. And the founders were largely against it.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
In Israel I believe it is mandatory to serve if you are over 18.
I don't see a lot of Israeli's running off to Canada.
A lot depends on whether you have the mind set to take advantage of all of the benefits of living in a free country but no obligation to serve the country or you think this is a free country because you owe a debt to others who made it free.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
According to the National WWII Museum (https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-us-military-numbers), 61.2% were drafted. Some volunteered, but most were drafted. I wasn't able to find any data on whether the "vast majority of able men were ready and willing to fight" in WWII, but I did find information regarding draft dodging or evasion during the Vietnam War. It was a widespread practice, indicating that many were not willing to fight that particular war. Either way you slice it, the draft is the government compelling you to sacrifice.
You can't find the data, because the question was never asked. But if you've talked to anyone of that generation, you'd know that most Americans were ready to defeat Japan and Nazism, either working in our homeland, or on the battlefield. People were happy to sacrifice fuel, metal materials for building vehicles, ships, planes, and bombs, plastics, rubber, conserving food... Women were proud to work in factories here at home to build the needs for war. There's no doubt plenty of people feared going and dying in war; therefore tried to find ways to dodge the draft. Quite honestly, I wouldn't want to fight next to one of those people.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
You can't find the data, because the question was never asked.
Not to mention that by late 1942 volunteering had been suspended and conscription became the sole means of getting service members.
 

SkylarkTempest

Active Member
You can't find the data, because the question was never asked. But if you've talked to anyone of that generation, you'd know that most Americans were ready to defeat Japan and Nazism, either working in our homeland, or on the battlefield. People were happy to sacrifice fuel, metal materials for building vehicles, ships, planes, and bombs, plastics, rubber, conserving food... Women were proud to work in factories here at home to build the needs for war. There's no doubt plenty of people feared going and dying in war; therefore tried to find ways to dodge the draft. Quite honestly, I wouldn't want to fight next to one of those people.
Okay, I'll just have to take your word for it because...reasons. At least you agree the draft is government compelling you to sacrifice, which is the argument here.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Okay, I'll just have to take your word for it because...reasons. At least you agree the draft is government compelling you to sacrifice, which is the argument here.
We are compelled to do a lot of things in the name of safety/security: speed limits, seat belts, helmets, background checks, licensing, driver's testing, car insurance, homeowner's insurance... Is it a bad thing to be compelled to defend your country? If China decides to launch an attack on our country, what would it take to convince you to take up arms to defend this country, that you so readily enjoy our freedoms? Is it more important that you exercise your right to not serve and hand over you liberties to China? We should be self-compelled to defend this country. Thankfully, we currently live in a time where we have enough willing to volunteer.
 

SkylarkTempest

Active Member
Is it a bad thing to be compelled to defend your country?
No. But if you don't agree that the conflict presents a threat to your liberty, it is sacrifice. Possibly the ultimate one.


If China decides to launch an attack on our country, what would it take to convince you to take up arms to defend this country, that you so readily enjoy our freedoms? Is it more important that you exercise your right to not serve and hand over you liberties to China?
If the military needed me, I would gladly serve.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
We are compelled to do a lot of things in the name of safety/security: speed limits, seat belts, helmets, background checks, licensing, driver's testing, car insurance, homeowner's insurance... Is it a bad thing to be compelled to defend your country? If China decides to launch an attack on our country, what would it take to convince you to take up arms to defend this country, that you so readily enjoy our freedoms? Is it more important that you exercise your right to not serve and hand over you liberties to China? We should be self-compelled to defend this country. Thankfully, we currently live in a time where we have enough willing to volunteer.
Unfortunately today's military aged people have had it so easy I doubt many of them would fight. But if the Chinese come here a lot of old timers will give them something to think about.
 
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