Numbers 24 David or the Messiah?

[seekeroftruth]

Numbers 24:15 Then he spoke his message:

“The prophecy of Balaam son of Beor,
the prophecy of one whose eye sees clearly,
16 the prophecy of one who hears the words of God,
who has knowledge from the Most High,
who sees a vision from the Almighty,
who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened:
17 “I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near.
A star will come out of Jacob;
a scepter will rise out of Israel.
He will crush the foreheads of Moab,
the skulls(b) of[c] all the people of Sheth.[d]
18 Edom will be conquered;
Seir, his enemy, will be conquered,
but Israel will grow strong.
19 A ruler will come out of Jacob
and destroy the survivors of the city.”​

b. Numbers 24:17 Samaritan Pentateuch (see also Jer. 48:45); the meaning of the word in the Masoretic Text is uncertain.
c. Numbers 24:17 Or possibly Moab, / batter
d. Numbers 24:17 Or all the noisy boasters

There is a controversy in many circles, of course. When Balaam, the prophet for hire, started this third attempt, he was talking about the future. The commentary questions which king, David or the Messiah.

This is from the easy English commentary.

The beginning of this passage is very similar to the words that Balaam spoke before his third prophecy (Numbers 24:3-4). But, this time, he spoke about events that would happen a long time in the future.

Balaam prophesied about a king who would come from Israel. This king would defeat the Moabites. The ‘sons of Sheth’ (verse 17) might refer to a tribe that lived next to the country called Moab. Or it might be another name for the Moabites.

Also, this king would defeat Israel’s enemies in the country called Edom. He would destroy them all. Edom was south of Moab.

Most of these prophecies happened about 300 years later. David, Israel’s most famous king, ruled after Saul. He was a great military leader. He defeated the people in Edom and in Moab (2 Samuel 8:2 and 8:13-14; 1 Kings 11:15-16).

Some people believe that these prophecies refer also to the Messiah. The Messiah was the great leader and king that would come in the future. The Jews believed that the Messiah would defeat all their enemies.

Jesus was the Messiah. He came to save people from the results of their sins. He did not use military power. But he defeated our enemy, the devil. When he died on the cross, he took away the power of sin. When he become alive again, he took away the power of death. And he will return in the future to rule as king.​

This is from the studylight.org page.

I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; a Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel: This passage is a beautiful prophecy of the coming Messiah. Balaam could see Him, but not now.

Jesus is here prophetically called a Star and a Scepter; He is glorious like a star, and has all authority to rule, as pictured by a scepter.​

And batter the brow of Moab, and destroy all the sons of tumult: The Messiah will eventually rule over all nations that surround Israel. Here God spoke about the neighboring nations of Israel (Moab, Edom, Amalek, and the Kenites) and their future through Balaam.​

This is from GodVine.

Rabbi Moses ben Maimon has, in my opinion, perfectly hit the meaning of the prophecy in the following paraphrase of the text:

"I shall see him, but not now. This is David - I shall behold him, but not nigh. This is the king Messiah - A Star shall come out of Jacob. This is David - And a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel. This is the king Messiah - And shall smite the corners of Moab. This is David, (as it is written, 2 Samuel 8:2 : And he smote Moab, casting them down to the ground) - And shall destroy all the children of Sheth. This is the king Messiah, of whom it is written, (Psalm 72:8), He shall have dominion from sea to sea."

The victories of David were a partial accomplishment of the predictions Numbers 24:14, Numbers 24:18, but did not exhaust them.
​

The controversy will continue.... I asked a Jewish man once, "Why can't you accept Jesus as the Messiah?" He gave me what he calls his pat answer. "How can the earth be so cruel if the Messiah had already been here?" Then he told me that Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, He will be the King and Israel's enemies will be defeated."

So this man says, David was a great king, but he was not the Messiah.

IMHO, this is just one of those questions I'll have to put on my list to ask Jesus when I see Him.

 

[newnature]

Where the Mosaic covenant was contracted between Yahweh and the nation, the Davidic covenant is contracted between Yahweh and a single individual, the king. The Davidic covenant is an eternal and unconditional covenant between Yahweh and the House of David, or the dynasty of David. Yahweh says that David and his descendants may be punished for sin. They certainly will be punished for sin, but Yahweh will not take the kingdom away from them as he did from Saul. Yahweh’s unconditional and eternal covenants with the patriarchs and with David do not prelude the possibility of punishment or chastisement for sin as specified in the conditional Mosaic covenant.

The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City. The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah.

The messiah simply means anointed, one who is “meshiach” is anointed with the holy oil, That is a reference to the fact that the king was initiated into office by means of holy oil being poured on his head. So King David was the messiah of Yahweh, the king anointed by or to Yahweh. And in the exile, Israelites would pray for another messiah, meaning another king from the House of David appointed and anointed by Yahweh to rescue them from enemies, and reestablish them as a nation at peace in their land as David had done. The Israelites hope for a messiah; it involved the restoration of the nation in its land under a Davidic king.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Where the Mosaic covenant was contracted between Yahweh and the nation, the Davidic covenant is contracted between Yahweh and a single individual, the king. The Davidic covenant is an eternal and unconditional covenant between Yahweh and the House of David, or the dynasty of David. Yahweh says that David and his descendants may be punished for sin. They certainly will be punished for sin, but Yahweh will not take the kingdom away from them as he did from Saul. Yahweh’s unconditional and eternal covenants with the patriarchs and with David do not prelude the possibility of punishment or chastisement for sin as specified in the conditional Mosaic covenant.

The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City. The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah.

The messiah simply means anointed, one who is “meshiach” is anointed with the holy oil, That is a reference to the fact that the king was initiated into office by means of holy oil being poured on his head. So King David was the messiah of Yahweh, the king anointed by or to Yahweh. And in the exile, Israelites would pray for another messiah, meaning another king from the House of David appointed and anointed by Yahweh to rescue them from enemies, and reestablish them as a nation at peace in their land as David had done. The Israelites hope for a messiah; it involved the restoration of the nation in its land under a Davidic king.

I'm sorry.... you talk way over my head....

I simply cannot understand what you are saying.... it's far too complicated.... sorry

 

[newnature]

Yet, when it comes to Jesus being risen from among the dead, how could Israel’s promised earthly king sit on the throne of David in a promised literal, earthly kingdom, if the king Yahweh anointed for that kingdom remained a dead king. If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly king. If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly kingdom. If there is no earthly kingdom and that is when Israel is supposed to be forgiven, then there is no forgiveness for the nation Israel; for the saints of the kingdom program. And if there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation. And if there is no salvation, there certainly is no bodily resurrection. And if there is no bodily resurrection, all this is a story, a fairytale.

 

[littlelady]

I'm sorry.... you talk way over my head....

I simply cannot understand what you are saying.... it's far too complicated.... sorry

Agree...newnature reminds me of THE GOVERNOR. Sheesh! Carry on. You are doing great. It is nice to have Bible study without leaving the comfort of home. I do go to church, occasionally, but not like I should. Dot married into a devout Catholic fam. Life is change.

 

[littlelady]

Yet, when it comes to Jesus being risen from among the dead, how could Israel’s promised earthly king sit on the throne of David in a promised literal, earthly kingdom, if the king Yahweh anointed for that kingdom remained a dead king. If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly king. If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly kingdom. If there is no earthly kingdom and that is when Israel is supposed to be forgiven, then there is no forgiveness for the nation Israel; for the saints of the kingdom program. And if there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation. And if there is no salvation, there certainly is no bodily resurrection. And if there is no bodily resurrection, all this is a story, a fairytale.

All I know is we don't know until we die. I can't stand people that preach like they know because they don't. That is impossible. That is the difference between you and seeker. She posts verses from the Bible, and has occasional discussion from it. I know her, personally, and know her faith. You, on the other hand, are a brow beater. This forum appreciates seeker. As seeker said, you make it too complicated. It is, actually, very simple. God bless you.

 

[seekeroftruth]

I worried over this controversy all night. Some of the controversy really bother me and for some reason this one did. According to the footnotes.... it translates to "all the noisy boasters" as well. I'm wondering who are the people that Balaam, the prophet for hire, is talking about.

This morning I did some more research. I went about searching for "all the people of Sheth" from verse 17. That search led me to a site titled "Promise of Messiah". I hunted of some other sites and to my surprise this site came up not once but twice in the same search.

Sheth is sometimes translated to be Seth, Adam and Eve's third son. Seth was supposed to make up for loosing Abel to murder. So, using that, people are bound to leap to the conclusion that this is about anyone in the lineage of Seth. According to the site, however, Sheth could be translated to mean "Tumult".

We know about tumultuous times. I mean the US just dropped the mother of all bombs on an enemy that has roots back to that same Seth.

I'm pretty sure that Balak, the Moabite king, would call the roughly 2 million people making their way to his territory, "tumult".

Anyway, back to David or the Messiah..... I found this at Biblehub.com.

And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also . . . —Better, And Edom shall be a possession, and Seir shall be a possession, for his enemies (i.e., the enemies of Israel, or, rather, of the Ruler who was to rise out of Israel). The Hebrew word (oyebaiv) which is rendered “his enemies” appears to stand in apposition to Edom and Seir, as the word zaraiv (his enemies, or adversaries) in Numbers 24:8 to “the nations.” Edom was the name of the people, Seir of the country. (See Genesis 32:3.) The prophecy received its primary accomplishment in the time of David (2Samuel 8:14), but the ultimate accomplishment is to be found in the person and work of Christ (Isaiah 63:1-4).​

So Balaam, the prophet for hire is talking about one ruler, not two. Tumultuous times didn't end with David, even tho he will conquer the Edomites.... they continue today.... it'll be Jesus the Messiah who will finally conquer Tumultuous time.