On atheists

[PsyOps]

Hi all,

This is my first post, so I just thought I'd introduce myself... I came to this forum to learn about stuff happening in the area. I'm a recent (2011) transplant from New York, and life here in MD is a little... slower. But I'm adjusting nicely.

After perusing the various sub-forums for a while, I came across "Religion". And that's when I felt I had to say something.

I have seen a few posts/responses that are somewhat critical of atheists. Nothing horrible, but they have contained inaccuracies. I am an atheist. Am I a "typical" atheist? Who knows. Different atheists believe different things (same for Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.). In fact, I'd suggest that most atheists share a lot of beliefs with most Christians. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, to clarify, there are two major misconceptions I think people have.

1. Atheists say (something like) "There is no God, and I know this for a fact". There are very few atheists who say anything like this. And no atheist I know of (either personally, or by reputation) has ever said this. In fact, if someone did, I would argue that he could not justify such a position, and further, that he would have the "burden of proof" to provide evidence of such a claim. The closest I've ever heard is, "I believe there are no gods." But mostly, it's just "I do not believe there are gods". (There is a very subtle, but important epistemological difference between those two statements.)

2. Atheists are out to remove religion from public life. This is simply not true. Some atheists are very vocally in their criticisms of religion. But most atheists I know are pretty much indifferent to religion overall. And none want to see it "banned".

There are more, but these were the two biggies. (If others crop up, be assured I will address them.)

By the way, if anyone is interested in what one particular atheist (that is, me) thinks, please feel free to ask. I'm not shy, I rarely get offended, and would love to help clear up any atheist misconceptions people might have.

I look forward to some interesting discussions. Thanks!

You have to understand that a lot of Christians are weary of the movement to shut religion (particularly Christianity) up in our schools, in our public square, etc… When an atheist pops up the defensive radar kicks in.

Are you comfortable with kids being taught about Christianity in our schools? Are you okay with schools celebrating Christmas? When we have established the official holiday of Christmas in this country, do you support the trend of changing the names of some of the Christmas figures like the Christmas Tree? Are you even comfortable with this country having the official holiday of Christmas?

Don’t go into some long diatribe about how Christmas is really a pagan holiday… Address the religion and the holiday. If it were truly a pagan holiday, there wouldn’t be so much effort to try to get rid of it.

 

[hotcoffee]

Hi all,

This is my first post, so I just thought I'd introduce myself... I came to this forum to learn about stuff happening in the area. I'm a recent (2011) transplant from New York, and life here in MD is a little... slower. But I'm adjusting nicely.

After perusing the various sub-forums for a while, I came across "Religion". And that's when I felt I had to say something.

I have seen a few posts/responses that are somewhat critical of atheists. Nothing horrible, but they have contained inaccuracies. I am an atheist. Am I a "typical" atheist? Who knows. Different atheists believe different things (same for Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.). In fact, I'd suggest that most atheists share a lot of beliefs with most Christians. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, to clarify, there are two major misconceptions I think people have.

1. Atheists say (something like) "There is no God, and I know this for a fact". There are very few atheists who say anything like this. And no atheist I know of (either personally, or by reputation) has ever said this. In fact, if someone did, I would argue that he could not justify such a position, and further, that he would have the "burden of proof" to provide evidence of such a claim. The closest I've ever heard is, "I believe there are no gods." But mostly, it's just "I do not believe there are gods". (There is a very subtle, but important epistemological difference between those two statements.)

2. Atheists are out to remove religion from public life. This is simply not true. Some atheists are very vocally in their criticisms of religion. But most atheists I know are pretty much indifferent to religion overall. And none want to see it "banned".

There are more, but these were the two biggies. (If others crop up, be assured I will address them.)

By the way, if anyone is interested in what one particular atheist (that is, me) thinks, please feel free to ask. I'm not shy, I rarely get offended, and would love to help clear up any atheist misconceptions people might have.

I look forward to some interesting discussions. Thanks!

When I was a little girl, my dad encouraged me to go find my own answers. I didn't have the benefit of an intelligible Bible.... KJV, in my opinion, is extremely hard to understand. All I had was the 23rd Psalm and some Bible stories I had been taught as a child.

I just knew in my heart that there is only one God. I knew that Jesus was His only Son and somehow Mary and Joseph were His parents. Confusion aside though, I felt at peace with that knowledge. I didn't really have occasion to speak to an atheist.... As a matter of fact I thought everyone was Christian... Easter and Christmas was celebrated all over the world at the same time.... I didn't know about the Passover and to me Jews were just like the Irish, Germans, Russians.... just people from a specific historical region of the world.

I was 28 when I found a Bible that I could read. That was some 45 years ago. I always had a problem with the Book of Ecclesiastes as it seemed to be kind of disjointed from the rest of the Bible but I never questioned it's origins.

A few months ago I heard that Ecclesiastes is one of the Books written by King Solomon. King Solomon, for those of you who may not know, was King David's Son. When he became king, he asked God to give him wisdom. That really impressed God.... so much so that he was given that wisdom.... but riches and fame beyond compare at the time.

But back to the reason I bring all this up.... Solomon questioned life without God. He wrote those thoughts down in what has become the Book of the Bible known as Ecclesiastes.

So my question is.... How would you respond to the writings of Solomon in the first chapter of Ecclesiastes?

I don't have a problem with carrying on a conversation about the existence of God. I have been told to encourage these types of conversations. I hope you will see this as a legitimate question, since that's what you asked for.

 

[Zguy28]

Not gone. Just haven't seen a reason to respond.

Actually, I was considering if I had anything worthwhile to add to the discussion. But then I saw your post, and it struck me... Why did you write that? It was as if you were trying to get rid of me (e.g. previously calling BS). Then you say, "he'll be gone it 25 posts". If I don't post again, you could say, "Ha! See? Another scared atheist has run away! I sure showed him!". Is it important to you that you get me to leave? Did you think I was trolling? (I honestly wasn't.) Why not have an open, honest discussion of ideas, and see where things go. If I say something wrong ("All Christians are X"), or inconsistent, say so. I'll address it, and maybe even change my mind. But to start off with ad hominems, strawmen, etc., is not helpful, and just kind of sad.

This is one reason why I hesitate to post in forums. It seems that in general (especially in contentious areas like religion, politics, etc.) there tends to be a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Too much name calling, and rushing to judgement, and not enough discussion of ideas.

Maybe I should not have responded. Maybe I should have taken the higher road. And also, maybe I did want to show you (and others) that you did not in fact scare off the atheist. Maybe a little. But I like to keep things open, and give people the benefit of the doubt. Will I "leave" if you call BS again? Maybe. But I really would like to have an actual discussion.

That was a bit long. Sorry for ranting.

Good on you for coming back.

 

[Zguy28]

I'm not sure what you mean by "classify" them. They are atheists. Dawkins is a biologist. Dennet is a philosopher. And they do write and talk about a lot of topics that relate to religion, and its negative effects. But as I write this, I think I see your point... They are very "active", right?

Very active.

Dawkins is very outspoken (not on "atheism" - which isn't even an "ism" in my opinion) on the subject of evolutionary biology. The reason, I think, is because he sees the creationism (also called intelligent design) movement as a threat to scientific advancement.

Dawkins is active in areas other than biology.

As for Dennet, I think he's a philosopher, and that's just what they do - talk about beliefs, meaning/purpose in life, morals/ethics, etc.

But I may be straying too far afield. Why do you bring up Dawkins, Dennet and those like them? Do you object to anything they say?

I object to pretty much everything they have to say.

I disagree. Not everyone has "faith" (as I defined it). And a quick aside... I don't want you to think I'm pulling a semantic "fast one" here. Are you OK with my definition of faith? (Belief in something without good reason.) If not, let me know, and we'll try to come to a consensus. Anyway...

There is nothing I have faith in. The things I believe in I do so for rational reasons.

I define faith the Hebrews way:

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

The whole chapter is a good read that explains how all of the biblical characters exercised faith throughout history. Maybe I missed it, but how did you define faith?

And to answer your question, no I am not in a relationship right now. But I think I see where you're going. I have a brother. And I would say I don't have faith in him. What I do have are reasonable expectations - from many years of knowing him, seeing what he does, how he behaves, etc.

The question I asked was not mine, rather it was a question asked of Richard Dawkins by John Lennox. It went something like this:

Richard Dawkins: “You only need to use the word ‘faith’ when you haven’t any evidence.”
John Lennox: “No, no, not at all. I presume you have faith in your wife. Is there any evidence for that?”
Dawkins: “Yes, plenty-”
Lennox: “Hmmm”

The context was not her existence, but rather her fidelity to her husband.
You can watch the debate here: The God Delusion Debate (Dawkins-Lennox)

If Dawkins was only interested in biology, why does he debate a mathematician about the existence of God?

 

[Bird Dog]

Why debate with a ghost?
I said he would be gone in under 25 posts.
He's gone.

Atheists do not have many bullets in their guns. Once they spew out their limited rhetoric, they go back under their rocks.

 

[Merlin99]

Why debate with a ghost?
I said he would be gone in under 25 posts.
He's gone.

Atheists do not have many bullets in their guns. Once they spew out their limited rhetoric, they go back under their rocks.

Yep once they get past pointing out how science works and you yell and point at the bible as your proof they're about done. Normally I don't say much about you religious types, but that was particularly condescending.

 

[Bird Dog]

Yep once they get past pointing out how science works and you yell and point at the bible as your proof they're about done. Normally I don't say much about you religious types, but that was particularly condescending.

Thank you

 

[Merlin99]

Thank you

You're welcome.