Open minded Leftists? Impossible

[Hessian]

This is a very interesting perspective to say that the secular Left is quite brainwashed compared to the "narrow" right.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37700

Can the secular left have a broader perspective if they ignore all the fundamentals of the faithful right?

Ie: The Passion of the Christ...the critics still didn't "get it"-proof that their "open-mindedness" is quite flawed.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hesh...

...I'd quibble with the word 'perspective' in that an obvious conclusion, the 'brainwashing' of the left, is no perspective. It is reality.

Prager lays his article out in a fashion that drives modern liberals insane; logicly.

The war on terror is illustrative here as well...the vast majority of Islamic people are intellectually isolated and the radicals seek to keep it so. Hell, they want everyone to think and worship as they do...sounds familiar, huh?

Therein lies the most unsettling difference bewteen the modern left and Islam: The majority of followers of Islam have had no choice. They are isolated economically, spritually, politcally and physically.

Go over to the DU and read their rules. They CHOOSE it.

 

[Bruzilla]

I would have to disagree that the followers of Islam are isolated. I've been to several muslim countries, and they are not isolated at all. They have access to cable TV systems that offer lots of US and British programming; they have access to western news services; and they are very familiar with our consumer goods. The local news is very, very, slanted against Israel, and to a much lesser extent the US, but there are plenty of other sources of information available.

For the most part, muslims are a lot like your average Americans... they just don't care. They know that their leaders suck, they know that their economies suck, and they know that the former is the cause of the later. They just want to be able to go to work each day and come home to their families each night, with a minimum of hassles from anybody.

I remember walking up to a Wendy's in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it was closed due to prayer time. I was sitting outside in the heat when one of the Saudis working inside saw me and unlocked the door so that I could come in and wait inside where the AC was on. He then went back to playing cards with the rest of the workers, who were supposed to be busy praying. The Saudi Navy students I was training we're always taking breaks for prayer, yet they were never out in the prayer area... they were usually out smoking.

What I learned in Saudi Arabaia, Bahrain, and Qatar is that it's a very vocal minority that runs about making everyone look bad... just like over here. The rest of the people just grunt in disgust and go about making the country work.

 

[Larry Gude]

Bruz...

...I gladly defer to your first hand experience.

Would it be fair of me to infer from your descriptions of typical Muslims that they are all for us pushing democracy in Iraq AND the obvious long term implications for political rule in the whole region?

What would they have us do in response to 9/11?

What would they have us do in response to Husseins deifiance of the UN?

I don't want to be at war with anyone who doesn't want to be (and is willing to help prevent it) at war with us.

Thoughts?

 

[Toxick]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
I would have to disagree that the followers of Islam are isolated.
...
The rest of the people just grunt in disgust and go about making the country work.

One of the most educational and enlightening posts I've read here yet.


Thank you.

 

[Hessian]

A witty view...

of the the unique problems with Islam and democracy (or the lack thereof)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37717

perhaps that awareness of the prosperty of the west is a chief combustible in the hatred of the west?

 

[Tonio]

This writer is talking about the current state of civil rights, but I think it applies to extremism in religions as well:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/op...mar24,0,1785811.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines

In his 1951 classic The True Believer, Eric Hoffer noted that fanatic movements attracted people who found a balm for their insecurity by folding themselves into movements that stressed unquestioning allegiance. Forging true progress means engaging with the complexities of the real world, but this requires individual initiative. Therefore, fanatic movements sidestep logical engagement in favor of mythologies and recreational fury. Post-civil-rights blacks have been ripe for such ideologies: Left with a sense that one is inferior, nothing could be more soothing than a new identity based on resenting a morally inferior enemy.

For the true believer, a paradisiacal future is the focus, which requires that the present be remorselessly condemned regardless of actual conditions. Hence the black "victicrat's" insistence year after year that "most" black Americans remain mired in misery.

 

[Bruzilla]

I think that the best model that one can use to guage success in the Middle East would be Russia. The people of the Soviet Union were a lot like the folks in the Middle East. The rulers live very well, they have their pet cronies who live less well but who prop up their providers, and then you have the real working class. Before I write anything else... I know there are a few Democrats who will read that last statement and get set to pounce on me by saying that's how things are in the US. In a way they would be right, but there's one immense difference. In these countries you can't do a dang things about your plight. What you do, where you do it, and what you get for your labor is determined for you. The social and power structures in these countries are designed to maintain a status quo. That's not the case in the US. Granted, the odds of success may tip one way or the other in the US, but there's no tip that's too big to overcome through sustained hard work and application of initiative.

Anyway... while these people are not insulated from Western culture and ideals, they don't actively seek a change due to social and political pressures. They are told that wanting Western things is evil, bad, etc. The fact that their leaders regularly enjoy these gets lost in the process. I would equate it to you watching videos from Hawaii or some other tropical paradise. You know it exists, you know it's a great place, you know that it sure beats the hell out of Maryland, but you don't go about trying to move there or change Baltimore into Honolulu. So... you envy the heck out of the folks who get to live there and then go out and shovel the snow.

I am a full supporter of occupying Iraq just as we did Europe. Once we bring freedom and democracy to Iraq, then the concepts of freedom and democracy aren't some far away, unattainable thing. Now they are a reality, and a closeby one that folks in Iran, Jordan, Syria, etc., can see close up everyday. Once Iraqis start reaping the rewards of freedom, the leaders of other countries are going to have a really tough time selling the notion that freedom in America is all a fraud. Once that happens, the dictatorships and fifedoms of the Middle East will fall just like the Soviet Union and Communism did.

I just got a postcard on Tuesday from a local kid I helped get into the Marines, who just went into Iraq earlier this month. He took some time out of his busy day to thank me for helping him, as he now understands why the World needs people like Americans. He says the Iraqi people are fantastic and very appreciative of what were doing. And he says that he's looking forward to hunting down the "vocal minority" who are out there trying to defend the status quo.

So to answer Larry's question, once we stabilize Iraq and get the benefits of freedom and democracy flowing, and people in other countries see the benefits of it, yes, they will be very much in favor of doing the same things in their countries. Remember that Poland was the first Soviet Bloc country to do this, and it wasn't long before all of the rest of the countries were following suit.

 

[Bruzilla]

Re: A witty view...

Originally posted by Hessian
of the the unique problems with Islam and democracy (or the lack thereof)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37717

perhaps that awareness of the prosperty of the west is a chief combustible in the hatred of the west?

Again... the whole "hatred of the West" things is a myth. There is no widespread hatred of the West in these countries. You've got a very small minority that the local governments love to play up to, which makes them seem far more numerous and influential than they are. I was in Saudi Arabia just about 40 days before 9/11, so I can make the case that I was there just before quite a few Saudi nationals committed mass murder in the US.

I spent two weeks working with Saudis, hanging out with Saudis, walking and shopping with Saudis, and not once did I have any fear or concern. They were all very helpful to me. They were all very inquisitive about what life in the USA was really like. And they really liked arguing about Israel. I had been told not to discuss Israel while I was there, but the debates were so good I couldn't help myself. They were quick to tell me how wrong I was about Israel, how Islam was a great religion, and how life for them was hard but liveable. I would then respond with arguments to counter theirs, and we would sit there and eat or drink or walk and talk. No one ever threatened me. They would try to convince me I was wrong, but they were never hostile.

My favorite debate was, and still is, over marriage. I had seven Saudi males spend the better part of four hours trying to convince me that the four wives allowed by Islam is much better than the one allowed by Western cultures. They told me how God wanted it, how it was better for women, how it was better for men, the works. I let them have their say, and then I asked each of them if they were married, and if so, how many wives did they have. All of them had to fess up that even though they had been married in some cases for over 20 years, it had always been to just one woman. I then asked them if their wives would kill them if they ever brought home another wife, and they all sheepishly said yes.... she would. That's the reality of Islam.

 

[Tonio]

Re: Re: A witty view...

Originally posted by Bruzilla
Again... the whole "hatred of the West" things is a myth. There is no widespread hatred of the West in these countries. You've got a very small minority that the local governments love to play up to, which makes them seem far more numerous and influential than they are. I was in Saudi Arabia just about 40 days before 9/11, so I can make the case that I was there just before quite a few Saudi nationals committed mass murder in the US.

I spent two weeks working with Saudis, hanging out with Saudis, walking and shopping with Saudis, and not once did I have any fear or concern. They were all very helpful to me. They were all very inquisitive about what life in the USA was really like. And they really liked arguing about Israel. I had been told not to discuss Israel while I was there, but the debates were so good I couldn't help myself. They were quick to tell me how wrong I was about Israel, how Islam was a great religion, and how life for them was hard but liveable. I would then respond with arguments to counter theirs, and we would sit there and eat or drink or walk and talk. No one ever threatened me. They would try to convince me I was wrong, but they were never hostile.

My favorite debate was, and still is, over marriage. I had seven Saudi males spend the better part of four hours trying to convince me that the four wives allowed by Islam is much better than the one allowed by Western cultures. They told me how God wanted it, how it was better for women, how it was better for men, the works. I let them have their say, and then I asked each of them if they were married, and if so, how many wives did they have. All of them had to fess up that even though they had been married in some cases for over 20 years, it had always been to just one woman. I then asked them if their wives would kill them if they ever brought home another wife, and they all sheepishly said yes.... she would. That's the reality of Islam.

Thanks for the info, Bru.

I wonder how the Saudis feel about polyandry (multiple husbands).

 

[Hessian]

Ok Bru...

so the follow up question is..
Why doesn't the press pick up on this?
Is this a case similar to 1897 where Hearst said send me some facts and I'll make the war? Trying to sell more papers--blew incidents way out of proportion.
Thus, The networks ...
a) want to avoid a Daniel Pearl reenactment.
b) are willing to read the BBC and "Americanize it."
c) know that the "Arab Street" is actually calm and thus not worth reporting because it helps build a case for the Republican aganda.

 

[Bruzilla]

Hessian, who gets most all of the "ink" in the United States... the millions of guys who work hard each day and do their best to help their fellow man, or the one or two guys who kill four fast food workers while robbing the store of $39? Is it the millions of women who work hard to put food on the table for their kids or the woman who drowns her kids in the bathtub? The millions of guys who drive back and forth to work each day or the one guy who gets drunk and slams into a bus stop full of kids?

There's no ratings points for the media to focus on the 90% of any population that does good. They focus on the 10% who cause the problems. Doing stories about boring people, leading boring lives, doesn't get viewers or papers sold. Also, there aren't a lot of "Good, Decent People" advocacy groups out there, most of them feed off of some type of illness or mayhem, so they do their best to get their message out. All these people who want to fight terrorism, racism, sexism, want to ensure gay rights, etc., all have bills to pay, and they usually rely on donations and government appropriations to earn their salaries. If there's no crisis or concern, there's no money. So it's these people who love to stir the pot with the media so that they can pay their mortgage.

From what I've seen of most of the media, they are doing everything they can to play down the successes of the war in Iraq. They may be doing this because they want Bush to look bad, or more likely because many editors came into the business during the Vietnam War and they're desperately trying to find a "bad" war of their own. They are very willing to overlook the 90% of great things that are happening in order to focus on the 10% bad. They want to highlight the 2% or less of the population that's causing problems rather than the 98% who are working with our folks each day to make things better.

I think that the Democrats and the media have forgotten all of the money and blood this country has expended since World War II to keep the peace in the Middle East. Who cares about 87 billion when we've wasted ten times that amount or more "swatting flies" and pursuing wasted policies. It's the same thing that we saw in the years before WWII.

Europe was a mess, and due to economic interests we kept getting dragged in to help clean their messes up. After WWII we basically sat on Europe and made them behave. If that's what it takes in the Middle East, then we should do it. It sure beats having to pay billions and billions of dollars, and countless lives, trying to negotiate with dictators, tyrants, and thugs.