People with 'no religion' gain....................

OoberBoober

Awwwwooooooooo
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson (excerpts from his memorial Wash DC)

This sounds eerily like what I said earlier. :popcorn:

"If not an absolute atheist, he had no belief in a future existence. All his ideas of obligation or retribution were bounded by the present life."
[President John Quincy Adams on Thomas Jefferson, 1831]
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
[Thomas Jefferson, _Jefferson Bible_]
"If the obstacles of bigotry and priestcraft can be surmounted, we may hope that common sense will suffice to do everything else."
[Thomas Jefferson]
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
[Thomas Jefferson]
"He is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong."
[Thomas Jefferson]
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
[Thomas Jefferson]
"If we could believe that [Jesus]...countenanced the follies, falsehoods and charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, ...the conclusion would be irresistible...that he was an imposter."
[Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) 3rd president of the U.S.]
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
[Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association]
"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution."
[Thomas Jefferson, 1776]

What? There are more btw if you want them all.
 

OoberBoober

Awwwwooooooooo
Oh here is my favorite.

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
[Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr]
 

foodcritic

New Member
Oh here is my favorite.

First. Context is king. (your "separation of church and state") is one fine example of this.

Second. At any one point in time in a persons life they may have conflicting beliefs and/or opinions.

Third. The plethora of time spent by our founders in public and private life documenting their belief in God is exhaustive.

TJ "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

Did TJ have harsh things to say about organized religion or the church...absolutely. However he was not an atheist! Nor did he argue for atheism as an acceptable worldview. EVEN he realized it was incompatible with freedom.......ask the commies.
 

OoberBoober

Awwwwooooooooo
First. Context is king. (your "separation of church and state") is one fine example of this.

Second. At any one point in time in a persons life they may have conflicting beliefs and/or opinions.

Third. The plethora of time spent by our founders in public and private life documenting their belief in God is exhaustive.

TJ "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

Did TJ have harsh things to say about organized religion or the church...absolutely. However he was not an atheist! Nor did he argue for atheism as an acceptable worldview. EVEN he realized it was incompatible with freedom.......ask the commies.

"[no citizen] shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever...[to] compell a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of [religious] opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical."
[Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom]

Please continue bigot.
 

OoberBoober

Awwwwooooooooo
First. Context is king. (your "separation of church and state") is one fine example of this.

Second. At any one point in time in a persons life they may have conflicting beliefs and/or opinions.

Third. The plethora of time spent by our founders in public and private life documenting their belief in God is exhaustive.

TJ "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

Did TJ have harsh things to say about organized religion or the church...absolutely. However he was not an atheist! Nor did he argue for atheism as an acceptable worldview. EVEN he realized it was incompatible with freedom.......ask the commies.

He makes a pretty big point to make sure he says "Christian god" not "Christianity" here.
"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
[Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr]
 

foodcritic

New Member
Please continue bigot.

"[no citizen] shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever...[to] compell a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of [religious] opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical."
[Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom]

I don't disagree with any part of this.....I don't see the point.

PS> I also used to be an atheist..
 

OoberBoober

Awwwwooooooooo
"[no citizen] shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever...[to] compell a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of [religious] opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical."
[Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom]

I don't disagree with any part of this.....I don't see the point.

PS> I also used to be an atheist..

[laws establishing freedom of religion]..."were meant to include within them the Muslim, the Hindoo [sic], and the infidel of any sort."
[Thomas Jefferson in a letter to his nephew, Dethloff, Henry C., ed. Thomas Jefferson and American Democracy. Lexington, MA: D.C. Heath and Co. 1971]
Such a Christian nation.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
I agree with you Nonno, this is a sad, horrific trend.

Why??

Because we are "winning"??

In the immortal words of John Lennon..

"Imagine there's no religion, no hell below us, above us only sky... "

What a wonderful world it would be ...


OOOH hybrid lyrics.

Us atheists are COOL like that.
 

TurboK9

New Member


e⋅van⋅gel⋅i⋅cal  [ee-van-jel-i-kuhl, ev-uhn-] Show IPA
–adjective
1. Also, e⋅van⋅gel⋅ic. pertaining to or in keeping with the gospel and its teachings.
2. belonging to or designating the Christian churches that emphasize the teachings and authority of the Scriptures, esp. of the New Testament, in opposition to the institutional authority of the church itself, and that stress as paramount the tenet that salvation is achieved by personal conversion to faith in the atonement of Christ.
3. designating Christians, esp. of the late 1970s, eschewing the designation of fundamentalist but holding to a conservative interpretation of the Bible.
4. pertaining to certain movements in the Protestant churches in the 18th and 19th centuries that stressed the importance of personal experience of guilt for sin, and of reconciliation to God through Christ.
5. marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause.
–noun
6. an adherent of evangelical doctrines or a person who belongs to an evangelical church or party.

Still doesn't explain the original statement... unless you were relying on #5 to back you up, in which case your definition is wrong, check websters, proper usage is "evangelistic" not "evangelism", defines a particular order within a religion, not a religion itself. So nice try there.

English :yay:

Furthermore, by reading the ensuing posts here, I am beginning to understand why you feel so downtrodden. People combat your words when you try to cast their beliefs in a bad light. Can't say I blame 'em. I don't see anyone here trying to convince anyone how atheism is evil, corrupt, sad, etc. but boy you sure go to town.

I think I see the real bigot.

I'm outta here!
 
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Nucklesack

New Member
That's right they were all atheists :killingme
Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suit. Nowhere in any of the posts have i claimed the Founding Fathers were atheists.

But unlike Christian Revisionists such as yourself, the Founding Fathers did recognized that the citizens that make up this nation can and do have beliefs other than their own. And unlike Christian revisionists, such as yourself, the Founding Fathers also recognize the citizens of this nation, who held other beliefs, are equally valid. As such they were carefull to keep the Declaration and the Constitution belief neutral.

We know this thanks to the Founding Father you (mistakenly) referenced:

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785​
John Adams:“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

What a militant :coffee:

"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." United States Constitution Article 6, section 3​

The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority it states that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God.

You might want to research a little (yeah right, as if you'd really be willing to use facts) before throwing up quotes from the Founding Fathers. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution. The only mention of God in the Declaration is Natures God (not a Christian concept). The Founding Fathers were very sure of what they wanted, A Government that recognizes all Beliefs, definetly not a Christian Government.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" John Adams letter to Thomas Jefferson 1821​
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind. -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)​
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816​
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles? -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815​
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813​
 

Nucklesack

New Member
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson (excerpts from his memorial Wash DC)

This sounds eerily like what I said earlier. :popcorn:
I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799​
Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814​

:killingme

You really do not want to use Thomas Jefferson as your Founding Father example (it really shows your ignorance of the Founding Fathers):
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)​
I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803​
The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and ... if any act shall be ... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right. -- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 2:546​
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82​
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82​
I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them.-- Thomas Jefferson, to Levi Lincoln, 1802.​
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.-- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779)​
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority.
But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the US an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.... I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it's exercises, it's discipline, or it's doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting & prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, & the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the constitution has deposited it. I am aware that the practice of my predecessors may be quoted.... Be this as it may, every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, & mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the US and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents. -- Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808​
 

Nucklesack

New Member
First. Context is king. (your "separation of church and state") is one fine example of this.

Second. At any one point in time in a persons life they may have conflicting beliefs and/or opinions.

Third. The plethora of time spent by our founders in public and private life documenting their belief in God is exhaustive.

TJ "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

Did TJ have harsh things to say about organized religion or the church...absolutely. However he was not an atheist! Nor did he argue for atheism as an acceptable worldview. EVEN he realized it was incompatible with freedom.......ask the commies.

Isnt it interesting that you dismiss the Jefferson Quotes as a conflicting belief, when he is quoted refuting your idiocy.

But you feel quoting him writing positive about Christianity is valid. :killingme
 

punjabigyrl

Active Member
Your naivety is delicious. From the 2nd source you neglected to cite because of incovinience.



Ever dated an athiest? Would you date an athiest? Because there is a serious road block when I am on the dating scene.

I will hold this secrect from my parents until their death because... I could come home gay with a black boyfriend one day and they would care less. But if I confessed to them that I was atheist, I would never be welcome in my home again. They have said this. I have seen more oppression than you would know. My immediate friends know and accept that, but If a conversation came up with a prospective employer I would tell them I am southern baptist. I prejudice is there even if you don't accept it.

Its sad that you have to hide the fact that you are an athiest.
 

foodcritic

New Member
Isnt it interesting that you dismiss the Jefferson Quotes as a conflicting belief, when he is quoted refuting your idiocy.

But you feel quoting him writing positive about Christianity is valid. :killingme

You are an atheist. Your belief is philosophically apposed to that of Jefferson. Jefferson was a deist. HE BELIEVED IN GOD. He also believed in aspects of the bible.

Your position is antithetical to his and mine. I don’t agree with TJ on faith matters. Jefferson’s philosophical world view and mine and infinitely more similar than that of yours.

His quotes with out context don’t prove anything about the joys of godlessness…….which is what you advocate....
 

Nucklesack

New Member
You are an atheist. Your belief is philosophically apposed to that of Jefferson. Jefferson was a deist. HE BELIEVED IN GOD. He also believed in aspects of the bible.
And to Jefferson, Franklin, (poss) Washington and a host of others, you believed in the wrong God.

Yet, unlike Christian revisionitst, they also respected that ALL beliefs are equally valid. Enough so, that they proclaimed it in the Declaration of Independence and cemented it into the Constitution.
Your position is antithetical to his and mine. I don’t agree with TJ on faith matters. Jefferson’s philosophical world view and mine and infinitely more similar than that of yours.
My position? Do you even know what the hell your talking about? The Founding Fathers fought for the independce of this county, against people such as yourself.

The Founding Fathers, after years of abuse, recognized religous freedom is fundamental to any free society. These rights were placed into the very first Amendment for a reason, to provide the document with a foundation behind allother rights.
His quotes with out context don’t prove anything about the joys of godlessness…….which is what you advocate....
Oh but when you quote Jefferson, without context, do?

Hypocrite much?

And at no point have i ever claimed the Founding Fathers were atheists. I have claimed 2 things, and unlike you, i have facts to back these up.
  1. The Founding Fathers were not all Christians (notice i do not stated they were atheists)
  2. The Founding Fathers believed in Religious Freedom, and did not want Religion and Government to be intertwined.
 

foodcritic

New Member
And to Jefferson, Franklin, (poss) Washington and a host of others, you believed in the wrong God.
Not a true statement

Yet, unlike Christian revisionitst, they also respected that ALL beliefs are equally valid. Enough so, that they proclaimed it in the Declaration of Independence and cemented it into the Constitution.

All beliefs equally valid is an illogical view.

My position? Do you even know what the hell your talking about? The Founding Fathers fought for the independce of this county, against people such as yourself.
Hardly. They fought against goverment tyranny that represented a "church". A point in which I agree.

The Founding Fathers, after years of abuse, recognized religous freedom is fundamental to any free society.
Agree
These rights were placed into the very first Amendment for a reason, to provide the document with a foundation behind allother rights.

Oh but when you quote Jefferson, without context, do?
Hypocrite much?

No not much. I provide them as a counter point to your endless diatribe of religious hatred. They prove that Jefferson was conflicted about his own beliefs which as I stated earlier, MINE are much more in line with than yours...

And at no point have i ever claimed the Founding Fathers were atheists. I have claimed 2 things, and unlike you, i have facts to back these up.
  1. The Founding Fathers were not all Christians (notice i do not stated they were atheists)
  2. The Founding Fathers believed in Religious Freedom, and did not want Religion and Government to be intertwined.

You use their ambigious religious statements to further your anti-christian rhetoric. While ignoring all of the religious statements they made about personal beliefs. They implored our country to turn to God and prayer. They were opposed to GOVERMENT RUN RELIGION. A distinction that leftwing anti-religion fanatics have ignored from the begining.
 

Nucklesack

New Member
foodcritic said:
And to Jefferson, Franklin, (poss) Washington and a host of others, you believed in the wrong God.
Not a true statement
Actually it is, Deists do not believe in the same thing as Christians. Deists believe Christ, if he existed, was propped up as the Messiah. Deists also do not believe in the Supernatural'ness of your God.

Deists (link) believe in a God based on reason and nature. This is different than your God, hence they believe you are following the wrong one.
foodcritic said:
Yet, unlike Christian revisionitst, they also respected that ALL beliefs are equally valid. Enough so, that they proclaimed it in the Declaration of Independence and cemented it into the Constitution.
All beliefs equally valid is an illogical view.
Only to a fanatic like yourself. The Founding Fathers recognized not everyone believed the same as themselves. They also recognized because of this that other peoples beliefs are equally valid.
foodcritic said:
Oh but when you quote Jefferson, without context, do?

Hypocrite much?
No not much. I provide them as a counter point to your endless diatribe of religious hatred. They prove that Jefferson was conflicted about his own beliefs which as I stated earlier, MINE are much more in line with than yours...
Wrong, you thought you found a quote that supported your position. I posted counterpoints that refute it.

The fact that the Founding Fathers took the counterpoint and made it into law and recognized it in the Constitution shows the fallacy of your argument.

Yours are very much not inline with Jeffersons intentions. We know this based on the laws and the Constitution that was enacted. If the Founding Fathers wanted a theocratical Government they would have created one. They made sure to keep Religion and Government seperate, they mandated that no Religious preference was ever to be given, and they ensured that no Belief was to be held in higher regard than any other.

The Founding Fathers are to blame for the Secularism of our Country they knew this was the only way to ensure Equal recognition for all beliefs. Christian Revisionist have attempted to change the intent of the Founding Fathers, at the expense of what the Founding Fathers enacted for this country.
foodcritic said:
And at no point have i ever claimed the Founding Fathers were atheists. I have claimed 2 things, and unlike you, i have facts to back these up.
  1. The Founding Fathers were not all Christians (notice i do not stated they were atheists)
  2. The Founding Fathers believed in Religious Freedom, and did not want Religion and Government to be intertwined.
You use their ambigious religious statements to further your anti-christian rhetoric. While ignoring all of the religious statements they made about personal beliefs. They implored our country to turn to God and prayer. They were opposed to GOVERMENT RUN RELIGION. A distinction that leftwing anti-religion fanatics have ignored from the begining.

And a distinction that Religious anti-Constitutions fanatics such as yourself fail to understand and ignore:
  • The quotes I post are what The Founding Fathers intended for the Country
  • The quotes you posted are what the Founding Fathers felt about their own personal beliefs.
    • You fail to understand the 2 are not equal
 
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