Pope John Paul II one step closer...

[Starman3000m]

It is very interesting that you, Starman, assume your intrepretation of the Bible, (assembled by the Catholic Church) is the only one. It is you that do not want others to follow other intrepretations, either their own or ones of theologians who devote their lives investigating scripture in light of Tradition.

You take every thread on this forum and turn it into a Catholic bashing orgy.
Remember, the topic is on the Beatification of Pope John Paul II. Why don't you follow your own words and leave those of us with Faith, maybe sl;ightly different then yours, alone.

Or, do you like to argue in circles, "I'm right, your wrong" without considering other intrepretations of the Bible, both Old and New Testament. Instead of arguing, open your mind and hear others.

That's the problem. Because there are many other "interpretations of the Bible" it clearly indicates that ONE of them has to be the True interpretation.

That is the reason that Truths become half-truths and where deception easily slips in. There was no reason to add additional teachings than what the first-century Disciples of Jesus had written.Their accounts were complete as God is the Author and Finisher of the True Faith in Christ. Religious teachings and ideologies that come along later and deviate from the Fundamental Truths need to be exposed in order to warn others who have been deceived by false teachings. That is the work that followers of the New Testament Jesus are also called to do.

 

[Starman3000m]

Don't you have to perform a miricle to become a saint? What miricle did the pope perform?

The claim that the Vatican is basing this on is that a nun was healed from Parkinson's Disease when she prayed to Pope John Paul II for healing.

IOW: The credit for the healing goes to JPII - not to God.

 

[ItalianScallion]

so says the MAN who represents himself as all knowing and judge of all religions [/COLOR][/B]

You do the very same things, son. You sit on here and use the same anti-God arguments over and over...WITH NO TRUTH BASIS! At least find the truth before you judge US...

yeah, and you chose to ignore the 'judge not' and 'let he who is without sin' parts.

You ignore loads of Bible truth also. (Only what you CAN'T see, of course...which is most of it)

It is very interesting that you, Starman, assume your intrepretation of the Bible, (assembled by the Catholic Church) is the only one. It is you that do not want others to follow other intrepretations, either their own or ones of theologians who devote their lives investigating scripture in light of Tradition.
You take every thread on this forum and turn it into a Catholic bashing orgy.
Remember, the topic is on the Beatification of Pope John Paul II. Why don't you follow your own words and leave those of us with Faith, maybe slightly different then yours, alone.
Or, do you like to argue in circles, "I'm right, your wrong" without considering other intrepretations of the Bible, both Old and New Testament. Instead of arguing, open your mind and hear others.

You do the same thing Bavarian. The main difference is something that you don't/won't accept: THERE ARE NO "OTHER INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE". God didn't write it so that anyone and everyone could make it say whatever they want.

Yes, Catholic men compiled the Bible, so why won't you believe what they put together and why they selected the books they did? What we speak to you about here isn't MINOR stuff. It's life altering truths. It's idolatry; it's superstitions and it's man made traditions & lies! Do you honestly believe that God wants you to depend on a stupid little scapular that you carry around your neck to help you get to Heaven after all that Jesus did? Do you think God is happy when you consult others for something that He wants you to consult ONLY Him for?

We do not pray to our Bible (as Libby said in jest). We do not worship nor pray to any picture, statue, or artifact and neither should anyone else.
It's time to wake up and admit that you've been lied to or your interpretation is wrong and it could lead to your missing out on the kingdom of heaven. Fortunately for you, a few of us here are trying to show you this before you depart from earth.

Imagine yourself meeting Jesus on Judgment Day and showing Him your scapular or your statues of Mary or anything else other than the righteousness given to you through Christ's blood?

 

[ItalianScallion]

Don't you have to perform a miricle to become a saint? What miricle did the pope perform?

According to the Bible, a person becomes a saint when they become a true believer in Jesus. Contrary to what the RCC teaches, that can only happen while they are alive...

 

[Starman3000m]

According to the Bible, a person becomes a saint when they become a true believer in Jesus. Contrary to what the RCC teaches, that can only happen while they are alive...

 

[Bavarian]

According to the Bible, a person becomes a saint when they become a true believer in Jesus. Contrary to what the RCC teaches, that can only happen while they are alive...

A person is a Saint when he/she is in Heaven. On Earth we are still striving to get to Heaven, hence The Church Militant. Those souls in Purgatory, dead, but not yet in Heaven are The Church Suffering.

God works a miracle through a person to show that that person is in Heaven. The miracles have to be authenticated. A miracle attributed to Pope John Paul II is God's way of telling us that he is in Heaven and that his life is one we should strive to imitate.

This is all probably too deep to you, hence the Catholic bashing on every post. You say that having a statue of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, or any other person is an idol, not a way to remember that person. I have not seen people bow to a statue of Mary, only to the Tabernacle holding the Body of Christ and to altars. This is in honor of God. Wearing a scapular is an outward sign of one's devotion to Mary and her Son, it shows that one has a strong Faith. At least now you have been reading the new Catechism and maybe God will inspire you to dig deeper and see the Light.

I am seeing the truth of the late Joseph Sobran's column where he said Protestantism is an absurdity, as every Protestant with a Bible is his own pope, and the number of "churches" or what ever you want to call yourselves spins out of control.

 

[Starman3000m]

It is not "bashing" to warn someone that they are on the wrong path.

A person is a Saint when he/she is in Heaven. On Earth we are still striving to get to Heaven, hence The Church Militant. Those souls in Purgatory, dead, but not yet in Heaven are The Church Suffering.

Where does it state this in the Holy Bible?

God works a miracle through a person to show that that person is in Heaven. The miracles have to be authenticated. A miracle attributed to Pope John Paul II is God's way of telling us that he is in Heaven and that his life is one we should strive to imitate.

Where does it state this in the Holy Bible?

This is all probably too deep to you, hence the Catholic bashing on every post.

Comparing RCC teachings to the Fundamental Scripture in the Holy Bible is not "Catholic bashing" at all. It is merely exposing the differences where only ONE can be correct.

You say that having a statue of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, or any other person is an idol, not a way to remember that person. I have not seen people bow to a statue of Mary, only to the Tabernacle holding the Body of Christ and to altars. This is in honor of God. Wearing a scapular is an outward sign of one's devotion to Mary and her Son, it shows that one has a strong Faith. At least now you have been reading the new Catechism and maybe God will inspire you to dig deeper and see the Light.

Please dig deeper into the Scriptures of The Holy Bible and try to find where what you have stated is actually what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Cite any Bible passage that directs believers to erect statues in commemoration of Jesus, Mary, the Apostles and to faithfully wear certain artifacts to ensure passage into heaven.

I am seeing the truth of the late Joseph Sobran's column where he said Protestantism is an absurdity, as every Protestant with a Bible is his own pope, and the number of "churches" or what ever you want to call yourselves spins out of control.

Now that statement and your agreement with it constitutes "Bashing" (Protestant Bashing)

There Is Only One Truth!

 

[2ndAmendment]

According to the Bible, a person becomes a saint when they become a true believer in Jesus. Contrary to what the RCC teaches, that can only happen while they are alive...

A person is a Saint when he/she is in Heaven. ...

Bavarian, I think that you and other Catholics believe the Bible. The Bible disagrees with your assessment of who is a saint. Here are 25 verses that refer to saints in the present tense as being alive and being those that believe in Jesus as the Son of God, Savior, and Lord. There are many more that indicate the same thing.

1. Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

2. Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;

3. Acts 9:32
Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

4. Acts 9:41
And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

5. Acts 26:10
"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.

6. Romans 1:7
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

7. Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

8. Romans 12:13
contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

9. Romans 15:25
but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

10. Romans 15:26
For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

11. Romans 15:31
that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;

12. Romans 16:2
that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

13. Romans 16:15
Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

14. 1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

15. 1 Corinthians 6:1
Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?

16. 1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

17. 1 Corinthians 14:33
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

18. 1 Corinthians 16:1
[ Instructions and Greetings ] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.

19. 1 Corinthians 16:15
Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),

20. 2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

21. 2 Corinthians 8:4
begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,

22. 2 Corinthians 9:1
For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;

23. 2 Corinthians 9:12
For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.

24. 2 Corinthians 13:13
All the saints greet you.

25. Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

[onel0126]

IN THE JULY ISSUE of This Rock appeared an article titled "The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints." The author was Mitchell Pacwa, a Jesuit who teaches at Loyola University in Chicago. He is known best to readers of this magazine for his frequent appearances on Mother Angelica's Eternal Word Television Network (his specialty is Old Testament studies) and for his debate, aired a few years ago on the John Ankerberg Show, against the late Walter Martin.

The most sustained response we have received to Fr. Pacwa's article has been from John Lofton, a spirited defender of the Reformed position, a former columnist for The Washington Times newspaper, and a guest on many nationally-seen talk shows. We publish first Mr. Lofton's response, then a reply from Fr. Pacwa.


No prayers to saints, thank you

FR. MITCHELL PACWA, S.J., undoubtedly has many talents, but, to put it charitably, the ability to accurately exegete Scripture does not, alas, appear to be among them.

In your July issue Fr. Pacwa asserts that the Church does allow "praying to the saints in order to ask for their intercession with the one true God." And he says that Protestants who say the Bible denies this are "incorrect."

Well, the Roman Catholic Church does, indeed, allow prayers to saints. But the Bible does not.

For openers, Fr. Pacwa never says, precisely, who the saints are. The Bible does, however. The Greek word used for "saint" in the New Testament is hagios, which means those set apart, those separate, those who are holy--in other words, all Christians, all those who are saved.

IN FACT, even John A. Hardon, S.J., in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary (Image Books, 1985) says, on page 390, that the word "saints" was "a name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Col. 1:2) . . . ." This is correct. This is biblical.

To be sure, Fr. Hardon adds that the word "saint" was "early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness," those "who distinguished themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization."

But these latter assertions are extrabiblical. No such restricted definition of "saint" is from the Bible. And Fr. Hardon cites no Scripture to support such an expanded definition--though this expanded definition is, again, indeed, the definition of the Roman Catholic Church.

In explaining who the saints are, Fr. Pacwa cites John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56. But in neither the Protestant Bible nor a Roman Catholic Bible (for example, the St. Joseph Edition of the New American Bible, published by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine in 1970) is the word "saint" used in these passages.

Furthermore, Fr. Pacwa says that the book of Revelation (4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11) shows "the saints" doing a number of things. But this is not completely accurate. Revelation 4:10, in the already-mentioned St. Joseph Edition of the New American Bible, makes no mention at all of "saints." What is mentioned are "elders"--from the Greek word presbuteros, which means "aged person." But "saints" are not mentioned. And the words "saints" and "elder" are not synonymous.

IN REVELATION 5:8 (again, in the New American Bible) the word "elders" is mentioned twice, but the word "saint" is not. There is a mention of "the prayers of God's holy people" at the end of this verse. But the allusion is to the prayers "of" these people. No mention is made of any prayers to these people.

And it is here that Fr. Pacwa goes seriously awry.

Fr. Pacwa says that because the saints are alive in heaven, "we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. . . . [T]hey will pray for us in heaven . . . [A] saint in heaven may intercede for other people because he still is a member of the Body of Christ . . . . The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord."

But the Bible does no such thing.

To support his assertions, Fr. Pacwa quotes from Hebrews 12:22-24. But verse 24, again from the New American Bible, refers to Jesus as "the mediator of a new covenant." Note: Christ is called "the" mediator, not a mediator. And in his own words following the citation of Hebrews 12:22-24, Fr. Pacwa also refers to our Lord as "the mediator," not a mediator.

In fact, the only New Testament verses I can find regarding intercession are in Romans 8:26-27, in which "the Spirit" is said to make intercession for us; Romans 8:34, in which "Christ Jesus" is said to intercede for us; and Hebrews_7:25, in which "Jesus" is said to make intercession for "those who approach God through him" (again, all quotations here are from the New American Bible).

IN CONCLUSION, Fr. Pacwa, at the end of his article, seems to shift his ground. He asks the question: "Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers?" And he replies: "Yes, in two places," Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4. But these passages allude only to, according to the Bible he quotes, "the prayers of the saints," "the prayers of all the saints," and "prayers of the saints."

Nothing is said in any of these passages about "approaching the saints with our prayers" or praying to the saints to intercede for us with God.

Fr. Pacwa says: "These texts give us a way to understand how the saints offer our prayers for us." He adds: "Because the saints are so close to the fire of God's love and because they stand immediately before him, they can set our prayers on fire with their love and release the powers of our prayers."

But this is adding to the Scripture, which Scripture forbids. This is Phariseeism plain and simple--that is, substituting the words of men for the Word of God.

It's not "the saints" versus "us." No way.

All of us who are Christians are saints. Thus, "our prayers," as Fr. Pacwa puts it, need no saints to get to God.

I repeat: Fr. Pacwa cites no specific Scripture which says that anyone intercedes for us other than "the Spirit" or "Christ Jesus" or "Jesus." If I've missed a specific Scripture, please cite it.

 

[onel0126]

And now, Fr. Mitch's response

Sorry, but you're wrong

MR. LOFTON, your letter has three difficulties: You do not understand my article in places, you limit your theology to scriptural words without thinking through their ramifications, and you do not have a sufficient Greek and biblical background. As a result you do not understand the saints.

You did not g.asp my use of John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56, where my point was that Christ bestows eternal life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood. Therefore the redeemed in heaven are alive in Christ, not asleep or dead, as unbelievers would claim. My purpose did not require the text to mention the saints explicitly.

You limit the meaning of "saint" to a term for Christians in general. The Church does not deny this sense; we just do not confine it to Christians living on Earth. A saint who dies in the Lord does not cease to be a saint by entering God's immediate presence.

Further, if Paul asks saints on Earth for intercessory prayer, it is logical to ask the saints already in heaven to continue their intercession.

YOU OBJECT WHEN I call the "elders" of Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11 "saints." Why? They are redeemed human souls, since they are in heaven, and therefore holy, since heaven can admit nothing unclean. The elders are saints. Your letter needlessly forces the term "saint" to exclude other meanings, such as "elder" and "spirits of the righteous ones made perfect."

You claim that only Christ and the Holy Spirit make intercession, though 1 Timothy 2:1-2 commands everyone "to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings on behalf of all men." Christians on Earth--your "saints"--"pray" (synonymous with "intercede") for one another in 32 New Testament passages.

Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us, as the Catholic Church proclaims. The official prayers of the Mass (see a sacramentary, our official Mass book) address the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit at every Mass, including feasts of Mary and the saints. Never do we pray these official prayers in the name of Mary or any other saint.

Since we believe that death brings us to life with Christ, seeing him face to face and becoming like him (1 John 3:2), we still can pray and intercede for others. We are not deprived of that ministry. John saw a vision of the elders and the angels around God's throne offering incense--not ordinary incense, but the prayers of the saints, who, as you must admit, are the Christians on Earth.

You are right. Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 do not portray the earthly saints making their petition to the heavenly elders and angels, but that is implied by the text since the heavenly saints and angels have earthly prayers.

I AM NOT ADDING to these passages, as you accuse, but drawing out their logical conclusions. Yes, Scripture forbids us to add to the text, but it does not prohibit us from thinking about the meaning of the text. Your limited interpretation, in fact, detracts from Scripture.

Since you do not know Greek, as the telephone conversation we had demonstrated, you are unaware that the manuscripts of Hebrews 12:24 do not have the definite article "the." They simply read "mediator."

What's more, accusing me of Pharisaism (not "Phariseeism") because I supposedly added to Scripture (which I did not) displays your misinformation about the Pharisees.

The Catholic Church does not force its members to have any particular devotion to the saints. It recommends such devotion on the basis of Scripture and prohibits anyone from condemning proper devotion. Scripture nowhere bans asking the saints in heaven for their prayers--so, please, do not add such a man-made ban.

 

[Starman3000m]

To whom are prayers directed here?

 A Devotion in Honour of the Seven Sorrows and Joys of Saint Joseph
 A Prayer for the Souls in Purgatory - By Saint Gertrude
 A Prayer to Saint Therese De Lisieux for Guidance
 Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon of St. Francis of Assisi
 Consecration to Saint Joseph (Of Children By Their Parents)
 Cyril of Alexandria
 Dedication of England to Saint Peter
 Dedication of the Day - by St. Ignatius Loyola
 Farmer's Prayer to Saint Joseph
 Hymn to Saint Rita of Cascia
 Litany of Saint Anthony
 Litany of the Saints
 Lorica of Saint Patrick
 Prayer about St. Patrick
 Prayer against Depression - by Saint Ignatius of Loyola
 Prayer befor a Picture or a Statue of Saint Anne
 Prayer before a Picture or Statue of Saint Anne
 Prayer by Saint Thomas -Tantum Ergo-
 Prayer of Saint Claude de la Colombiere - A Despair Prayer.
 Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi before the Blessed Sacrament
 Prayer of St. Ignatius Loyola
 Prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas
 PRAYER OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS (1225-1274 A.D.)
 Prayer to Blessed Josemaria Escriva
 Prayer to Saint John Bosco
 Prayer to Saint Joseph
 Prayer to Saint Joseph #7
 Prayer to Saint Joseph #8
 Prayer to Saint Joseph for Success in Work
 Prayer to Saint Michael for Powerful Aid
 PRAYER TO SAINT THERESE DE LISIEUX FOR GUIDANCE
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Charity
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Chastity
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Faith
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Fortitude
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Hope  Prayer to St. Dymphna - Justice
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Perseverance
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Prudence
 Prayer to St. Dymphna - Temperance
 Prayer to St. Martin de Porres
 Prayers and Passages of St. Alphonsus De Liguori
 Saint Anthony of Padua
 Saint Anthony, Consoler of the Afflicted
 Saint Anthony, Disperser of Devils
 Saint Anthony, Example of Humility
 Saint Anthony, Generator of Charity
 Saint Anthony, Guide of Pilgrims
 Saint Anthony, Liberator of Prisoners
 Saint Anthony, Martyr of Desire
 Saint Anthony, Model of Perfection
 Saint Anthony, Performer of Miracles
 Saint Anthony, Restorer of Sight to the Blind
 Saint Anthony, Restorer of Speech to the Mute
 Saint Anthony, Zealous for Justice
 Saint Dymphna
 Saint Jude
 Saint Romuald, Abbot
 St. Alphonsus De Liguori to Jesus Christ, to Obtain His Holy Love
 St. Alphonsus De Liguori's Short Act of Perfect Love
 St. Blase
 St. Francis of Assisi's prayer in praise of God given to Brother Leo
 St. Francis of Assisi's prayer praising Mary the Mother of Jesus
 St. Francis of Assisi's Vocation Prayer
 St. Peter
 St. Theresa of the Child Jesus
 The Anima Christi of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton
 The Blessing of St. Francis of Assisi to Brother Leo
 The Meditation Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi
 To Saint Anne
 Unfailing Prayer to St. Anthony

Saint - Prayers - Catholic Online

 

[onel0126]

Sorry, Mary's perpetual virginity and elevation to Mediatix and Queen of Heaven, sinful men being able to forgive others are not fundamental teachings of the 1st century church. They have been added by the RCC .

A different angle....

The coronation of Mary in heaven should be understood against the Jewish background of early Christianity. In Judah, partly because of the Fourth Commandment (Ex. 20:12), the mother of the anointed king had a function of considerable importance, and her name is with only two exceptions associated with the accession of the king in the official annals. [See 1 Kings 14:21; 15:2, 10; 22:42; 2 Kings 8:26; 9:6-7, 22; 12:1; 14:2; 15:2, 33; 18:2; 22:1; 23:31, 36; 24:18]. The king's mother bore the powerful and prestigious title of Gebirah [Literally "lady" or "mistress," used six times in the Bible and always as the title of a queen, whether the wife (1 Kgs. 11:19) or mother of a king (1 Kgs. 15:13, 2 Kgs. 10:13, 2 Chron. 15:16, Jer. 13:18, 29:2). It ought to be noted that the title is used only once in reference to the wife of a king, and even there it is used of Tahpenes, the queen of Egypt, and not of a queen of Judah, where the title is associated more with the queen mother] and received honors of the first order. She had an official place at the court, was mistress of the harem, had enough power to seize complete control over the nation (as did Athaliah in 842 B.C., 2 Kgs. 11:1-3), was sent into exile with the king (as was Nehushta in 597 B.C., Jer. 29:2), and could be deposed (as was King Asa's idolatrous grandmother, Maacah, who first became queen mother during the reign of her son Abijam, 1 Kgs. 15:2, 10, 13, 2 Chron. 15:16). The Gebirah was a monarchical institution and had a throne and a crown. [ Compare Jeremiah 13:18, where the prophet proclaims to the eighteen-year-old Jehoiachin and the queen mother, Nehushta, "Say to the king and to the queen mother, 'Come down from your thrones, for your glorious crowns will fall from your heads.'" ]

As Jesus is the ultimate King of the Jews, fulfilling the messianic prophecy in 2 Samuel 7:10-17, it would be strange indeed if Mary did not have this crown as the ultimate queen mother. The monarchical nature of the kingdom of God, complete with queen mother, may be difficult to appreciate for those who live in a democratic culture, but it was something accepted as natural in early Christendom, as witnessed by the art and literature.

In 1 Kings 1:16, 31 we see Queen Bathsheba petitioning King David, her husband, by bowing "her face to the earth, and [doing] homage to the king, and [saying], 'Let my lord, King David, live forever!'" This was common protocol in the court of an Oriental monarch, though the position of the queen seems to have been somewhat higher in other Near Eastern countries than it was in Judah and Israel (but compare Jezebel in 1Kings 21:7-11).

Contrast this to the next chapter. In 1 Kings 2:13-20 Solomon, the son of David, has come to the throne. Adonijah approaches "Bathsheba the mother of Solomon" with a request and says, "Please speak to King Solomon, for he will not refuse you." Bathsheba promises to intercede with Solomon on his behalf (compare John 2:1-11, where Mary intercedes with Jesus), not seeing through Adonijah's plot to seize the throne. "Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah." The use of the title "King Solomon" hints that Solomon acts in his official capacity (cf. verse 23).

Instead of Bathsheba scraping her face on the floor before Solomon as previously she had done before David, King Solomon "rose up to meet her and bowed down to her and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king's mother; so she sat at his right hand. Then she said, 'I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.' And the king said to her, 'Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you'" (vv. 19-20). Solomon wasn't merely being a nice son. It was a custom throughout the ancient world to make the right-hand seat the place of honor and of delegated authority, which is precisely why the New Testament speaks of Christ as being seated at the right hand of the Father. Bathsheba's status in society had changed; she had become the "king's mother."

 

[Starman3000m]

How Many In Heaven, 3 or 4 ???

A different angle....

The coronation of Mary in heaven should be understood against the Jewish background of early Christianity. In Judah, partly because of the Fourth Commandment (Ex. 20:12), the mother of the anointed king had a function of considerable importance, and her name is with only two exceptions associated with the accession of the king in the official annals. [See 1 Kings 14:21; 15:2, 10; 22:42; 2 Kings 8:26; 9:6-7, 22; 12:1; 14:2; 15:2, 33; 18:2; 22:1; 23:31, 36; 24:18]. The king's mother bore the powerful and prestigious title of Gebirah [Literally "lady" or "mistress," used six times in the Bible and always as the title of a queen, whether the wife (1 Kgs. 11:19) or mother of a king (1 Kgs. 15:13, 2 Kgs. 10:13, 2 Chron. 15:16, Jer. 13:18, 29:2). It ought to be noted that the title is used only once in reference to the wife of a king, and even there it is used of Tahpenes, the queen of Egypt, and not of a queen of Judah, where the title is associated more with the queen mother] and received honors of the first order. She had an official place at the court, was mistress of the harem, had enough power to seize complete control over the nation (as did Athaliah in 842 B.C., 2 Kgs. 11:1-3), was sent into exile with the king (as was Nehushta in 597 B.C., Jer. 29:2), and could be deposed (as was King Asa's idolatrous grandmother, Maacah, who first became queen mother during the reign of her son Abijam, 1 Kgs. 15:2, 10, 13, 2 Chron. 15:16). The Gebirah was a monarchical institution and had a throne and a crown. [ Compare Jeremiah 13:18, where the prophet proclaims to the eighteen-year-old Jehoiachin and the queen mother, Nehushta, "Say to the king and to the queen mother, 'Come down from your thrones, for your glorious crowns will fall from your heads.'" ]

As Jesus is the ultimate King of the Jews, fulfilling the messianic prophecy in 2 Samuel 7:10-17, it would be strange indeed if Mary did not have this crown as the ultimate queen mother. The monarchical nature of the kingdom of God, complete with queen mother, may be difficult to appreciate for those who live in a democratic culture, but it was something accepted as natural in early Christendom, as witnessed by the art and literature.

In 1 Kings 1:16, 31 we see Queen Bathsheba petitioning King David, her husband, by bowing "her face to the earth, and [doing] homage to the king, and [saying], 'Let my lord, King David, live forever!'" This was common protocol in the court of an Oriental monarch, though the position of the queen seems to have been somewhat higher in other Near Eastern countries than it was in Judah and Israel (but compare Jezebel in 1Kings 21:7-11).

Contrast this to the next chapter. In 1 Kings 2:13-20 Solomon, the son of David, has come to the throne. Adonijah approaches "Bathsheba the mother of Solomon" with a request and says, "Please speak to King Solomon, for he will not refuse you." Bathsheba promises to intercede with Solomon on his behalf (compare John 2:1-11, where Mary intercedes with Jesus), not seeing through Adonijah's plot to seize the throne. "Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah." The use of the title "King Solomon" hints that Solomon acts in his official capacity (cf. verse 23).

Instead of Bathsheba scraping her face on the floor before Solomon as previously she had done before David, King Solomon "rose up to meet her and bowed down to her and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king's mother; so she sat at his right hand. Then she said, 'I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.' And the king said to her, 'Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you'" (vv. 19-20). Solomon wasn't merely being a nice son. It was a custom throughout the ancient world to make the right-hand seat the place of honor and of delegated authority, which is precisely why the New Testament speaks of Christ as being seated at the right hand of the Father. Bathsheba's status in society had changed; she had become the "king's mother."

You, therefore, also must believe that there are four (4) in Heaven: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Mary when the Holy Bible proclaims that there are Only Three in Heaven and never stated there would be a fourth:

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (1 John 5:6-8)

There Is Only One Truth

 

[libby]

QUEEN MOTHER OF THE NEW DAVIDIC KINGDOM

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"Luke 1:28

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king's mother, and she sat down on his right. 1 Kings 1:19

The title Gebirah (Gebira), meaning "Great Lady" or "Queen Mother" was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel, but limited to those Queens who were mothers of kings in the line of King David. When the monarchy divided into the two kingdoms of Judah in the south and Israel in the north, the institution of the Gebirah was not practiced in the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Northern Kingdom was ruled by 9 ruling houses (dynasties) but Judah continued to be ruled by the House of David.

The royal kings of Israel and the House of David had many wives and no single wife of the king had the influence that his mother enjoyed as the chief confidant of her son. It is not clear exactly what position of authority was accorded the mothers of the kings of Israel/ Judah, but scholars believe that Queen mothers of the ruling House of David were crowned, occupied a throne next to their sons, and that both state and religious functions required their presence and attention. There is evidence from other kingdoms in antiquity that the queen mother was the most highly placed person in the kingdom next to the king [i.e. in Egypt, in the Hittite Empire, etc.]. We do know from Scripture that these women exercised their influence from the time their sons ascended the throne and sometimes even into the reign of their grandsons as in the case of Maacah in 1 Kings 15 during the reign of her grandson Asa. It is significant that every mother of a Davidic king is listed along with her son in Sacred Scripture. The name of each Davidic Queen Mother is given in the introduction to each reign of the Davidic Kings of Judah [i.e. 1 Kings 14:21; 15:9-10; 22:42; 2 Kings 12:2; 14:2; 15:2; 15:33; 18:2; 21:2; 21:19; 22:1; 23:31; 23:36; 24:8; 24:18; also see the Chart of the Kings and Queen Mothers of Judah].

The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king's chief counselor. The Hebrew word, gebirah, is found fifteen times in the Old Testament [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9 (used for Sarah, wife of Abraham); 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 &2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne. The only queen mothers not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18], King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3], and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson.

Some Biblical passages which refer to the office of the Gebirah [all passages are quoted from the New Jerusalem Bible translation]:

•1 Kings 11:19: [In this passage the Hebrew title is used for an Egyptian queen mother: Hadad became a great favorite of Pharaoh who gave him his own wife's sister in marriage, the sister of the Great Lady (Gebirah) Taphenes. [Note: Taphenes is not a proper name but is an Egyptian title meaning "king's wife" which was used to designate the Queen mother. Since Israelites reading the text might not understand the meaning of the Egyptian title, the inspired writer used the title for the Davidic Queen mother, Gebirah.
•1 Kings 15:13: He even deprived his grandmother Maacah of the dignity of Great Lady [Gebirah] for having made an obscenity for Asherah...
•2 Kings 10:13: he met the brothers of Ahaziah king of Judah. 'Who are you?' he asked. 'We are Ahaziah's brothers,' they replied, 'and we are on our way to pay our respects to the king's sons and the queen mother's (Gebirah) sons.'
•2 Chronicles 15:16: King Asa even deprived his (grand) mother Maacah of the dignity of Great Lady (Gebirah) for having made an obscenity for Asherah..
•Jeremiah 13:18: Tell the king and the Queen mother (Gebirah), 'Sit in a lower place, since your glorious crown has fallen from your head.
•Jeremiah 29:2: This was after King Jechoniah had left Jerusalem with the Queen mother (Gebirah), the eunuchs, the chief men of Judah and Jerusalem, and the blacksmiths and metalworkers.
Jesus Christ is the heir of King David, He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36 [see the chart comparing the promises to David and Mary in the Chart section on the New Testament/ Mary]. Mary's son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is fitting that His mother should enjoy the same role that other Davidic Queen mothers enjoyed, that is the royal office of the heavenly Gebirah. It is in this sense that Catholics call her "the Queen of Heaven" and not in the pagan sense of that title as it is translated in English and found in Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17, 18, 19, & 25; which is a designation for an Egyptian goddess. Since Jeremiah uses both terms, the Hebrew title Gebirah for the Queen mother of a Judahite king of the House of David, and the Hebrew word "queen" = meleketh for the Egyptian goddess, it is obvious there one does not equate to the other.

Sacred Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne along side her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21. In times of conquest both the king and his mother represented royal power and both were deposed [2 Kings 24:12]. The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. Upon her Assumption into heaven He Son placed her in her well deserved place beside His throne as mother of the King of kings. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1 'clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. As Christ's mother she reflects His light just as the moon reflects the light of the sun and she calls all her children in the family of the Church to follow her Son and to do, as she advised the servants at the wedding at Cana, whatever He tells you [John 2:5].

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sins, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966 [quoting Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950); Revelation 19:16; and from the Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition.

 

[libby]

QUEEN MOTHER OF THE NEW DAVIDIC KINGDOM

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"Luke 1:28

So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king's mother, and she sat down on his right. 1 Kings 1:19

The title Gebirah (Gebira), meaning "Great Lady" or "Queen Mother" was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel, but limited to those Queens who were mothers of kings in the line of King David. When the monarchy divided into the two kingdoms of Judah in the south and Israel in the north, the institution of the Gebirah was not practiced in the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Northern Kingdom was ruled by 9 ruling houses (dynasties) but Judah continued to be ruled by the House of David.

The royal kings of Israel and the House of David had many wives and no single wife of the king had the influence that his mother enjoyed as the chief confidant of her son. It is not clear exactly what position of authority was accorded the mothers of the kings of Israel/ Judah, but scholars believe that Queen mothers of the ruling House of David were crowned, occupied a throne next to their sons, and that both state and religious functions required their presence and attention. There is evidence from other kingdoms in antiquity that the queen mother was the most highly placed person in the kingdom next to the king [i.e. in Egypt, in the Hittite Empire, etc.]. We do know from Scripture that these women exercised their influence from the time their sons ascended the throne and sometimes even into the reign of their grandsons as in the case of Maacah in 1 Kings 15 during the reign of her grandson Asa. It is significant that every mother of a Davidic king is listed along with her son in Sacred Scripture. The name of each Davidic Queen Mother is given in the introduction to each reign of the Davidic Kings of Judah [i.e. 1 Kings 14:21; 15:9-10; 22:42; 2 Kings 12:2; 14:2; 15:2; 15:33; 18:2; 21:2; 21:19; 22:1; 23:31; 23:36; 24:8; 24:18; also see the Chart of the Kings and Queen Mothers of Judah].

The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king's chief counselor. The Hebrew word, gebirah, is found fifteen times in the Old Testament [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9 (used for Sarah, wife of Abraham); 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 &2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne. The only queen mothers not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18], King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3], and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson.

Some Biblical passages which refer to the office of the Gebirah [all passages are quoted from the New Jerusalem Bible translation]:

•1 Kings 11:19: [In this passage the Hebrew title is used for an Egyptian queen mother: Hadad became a great favorite of Pharaoh who gave him his own wife's sister in marriage, the sister of the Great Lady (Gebirah) Taphenes. [Note: Taphenes is not a proper name but is an Egyptian title meaning "king's wife" which was used to designate the Queen mother. Since Israelites reading the text might not understand the meaning of the Egyptian title, the inspired writer used the title for the Davidic Queen mother, Gebirah.
•1 Kings 15:13: He even deprived his grandmother Maacah of the dignity of Great Lady [Gebirah] for having made an obscenity for Asherah...
•2 Kings 10:13: he met the brothers of Ahaziah king of Judah. 'Who are you?' he asked. 'We are Ahaziah's brothers,' they replied, 'and we are on our way to pay our respects to the king's sons and the queen mother's (Gebirah) sons.'
•2 Chronicles 15:16: King Asa even deprived his (grand) mother Maacah of the dignity of Great Lady (Gebirah) for having made an obscenity for Asherah..
•Jeremiah 13:18: Tell the king and the Queen mother (Gebirah), 'Sit in a lower place, since your glorious crown has fallen from your head.
•Jeremiah 29:2: This was after King Jechoniah had left Jerusalem with the Queen mother (Gebirah), the eunuchs, the chief men of Judah and Jerusalem, and the blacksmiths and metalworkers.
Jesus Christ is the heir of King David, He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36 [see the chart comparing the promises to David and Mary in the Chart section on the New Testament/ Mary]. Mary's son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is fitting that His mother should enjoy the same role that other Davidic Queen mothers enjoyed, that is the royal office of the heavenly Gebirah. It is in this sense that Catholics call her "the Queen of Heaven" and not in the pagan sense of that title as it is translated in English and found in Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17, 18, 19, & 25; which is a designation for an Egyptian goddess. Since Jeremiah uses both terms, the Hebrew title Gebirah for the Queen mother of a Judahite king of the House of David, and the Hebrew word "queen" = meleketh for the Egyptian goddess, it is obvious there one does not equate to the other.

Sacred Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne along side her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21. In times of conquest both the king and his mother represented royal power and both were deposed [2 Kings 24:12]. The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. Upon her Assumption into heaven He Son placed her in her well deserved place beside His throne as mother of the King of kings. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1 'clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. As Christ's mother she reflects His light just as the moon reflects the light of the sun and she calls all her children in the family of the Church to follow her Son and to do, as she advised the servants at the wedding at Cana, whatever He tells you [John 2:5].

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sins, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966 [quoting Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950); Revelation 19:16; and from the Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition.

Obviously, a copy and paste.

 

[thatguy]

You do the very same things, son. You sit on here and use the same anti-God arguments over and over...WITH NO TRUTH BASIS! At least find the truth before you judge US...

You ignore loads of Bible truth also. (Only what you CAN'T see, of course...which is most of it)

i dont know that i have ever used "anti-god arguments". what i tend to do is take issue with people who 'think' they have it all figured out and that they somehow have the right to tell everyone else that they are doing it wrong.
You have no clue as to the one truth (if there even is one), and you and starmann certainly dont have any right to attack what others believe. You will notice that i usually only weigh in on these threads when someone (usualy you or starmann) chooses to attack anothers beliefs, or use their religion in an attempt to justify their bigotry (towards muslims, catholics, atheists etc.). you guys get really offended when i hold up your own rules and point out that you are violating them while preaching to the world that you know the only truth.
I notice that starmann chose to ignore the "judging others" and "casting the first stone" passages, and you attacked me instead of addressing the fact that you are in direct violation of these parts of the good book. EXTREMELY HYPOCRITICAL but what else would you expect from a false prophet

BTW, when you dont base your belief system on a book, you are free to 'ignore' any or all parts of it. the book was written and assembled by men, not god or jesus

 

[Starman3000m]

...BTW, when you dont base your belief system on a book, you are free to 'ignore' any or all parts of it.

That's why you don't know which one could be the TRUTH. You freely choose to "ignore any or all parts" of the many books on religion in this world. Thus, you don't have a basis to comprehend which one would be correct. However, if you don't believe in God and Salvation unto Eternal Life, all of your attacks against Italian and me could easily be directed to people of all other religions who claim theirs is the exclusive truth - i.e., Mormons, Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Moonies, etc.

the book was written and assembled by men, not god or jesus

Deceptive variations of God's Fundamental Truths have indeed been revised, written and assembled by men, thus, false religions and misguided teachings.
The Holy Bible is the Fundamental source of Truth as Revealed by God to faithful men as inspired through His Holy Spirit. The New Testament accounts of Jesus by the Apostles are first-hand experiences that were documented for the teaching and instruction on how to receive God's Forgiveness and Salvation unto Eternal Life through faith in Christ. Simple - not complicated.


For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:2)

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (Titus 1:13-16)

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. (Titus 2:15)

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

Pseudo-Christian Churches preach "another Jesus" and not the True Jesus of the New Testament accounts:
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(2 Corinthians 3:3-4)

 

[PsyOps]

i dont know that i have ever used "anti-god arguments". what i tend to do is take issue with people who 'think' they have it all figured out and that they somehow have the right to tell everyone else that they are doing it wrong.

So, you're talking about wx

 

[ItalianScallion]

A person is a Saint when he/she is in Heaven. On Earth we are still striving to get to Heaven, hence The Church Militant. Those souls in Purgatory, dead, but not yet in Heaven are The Church Suffering.

Yes, a person is a saint in Heaven but only if they were one when they left earth. There is no Purgatory, so that argument is dead (pun intended).

God works a miracle through a person to show that that person is in Heaven. The miracles have to be authenticated. A miracle attributed to Pope John Paul II is God's way of telling us that he is in Heaven and that his life is one we should strive to imitate.

Sorry; not according to God:
"9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (1 Thessalonians 2 v 9-12)

This is all probably too deep to you, hence the Catholic bashing on every post. You say that having a statue of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, or any other person is an idol, not a way to remember that person. I have not seen people bow to a statue of Mary, only to the Tabernacle holding the Body of Christ and to altars.

Again; caring about someone is not bashing them...

If you haven't seen anyone bow down to a statue, you haven't been watching. I know people who have shrines and altars to Mary in their homes and they kneel and bow down and pray to them. Ever been to a schools "May procession"? A Catholic's first communion? Guess who's the guest of honor there?

And now, Fr. Mitch's response:
Further, if Paul asks saints on Earth for intercessory prayer, it is logical to ask the saints already in heaven to continue their intercession.

Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us, as the Catholic Church proclaims. The official prayers of the Mass (see a sacramentary, our official Mass book) address the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit at every Mass, including feasts of Mary and the saints. Never do we pray these official prayers in the name of Mary or any other saint.

Since we believe that death brings us to life with Christ, seeing him face to face and becoming like him (1 John 3:2), we still can pray and intercede for others. We are not deprived of that ministry. John saw a vision of the elders and the angels around God's throne offering incense--not ordinary incense, but the prayers of the saints, who, as you must admit, are the Christians on Earth.
Those prayers are from the saints on earth, to God! Way to fall for and twist that one! If he had read the Bible, he would see that it clearly states: "the dead know nothing...no one can tell him what will happen under the sun when he is gone..." (Ecclesiastes 6:12 & 9:5)

The Catholic Church does not force its members to have any particular devotion to the saints. It recommends such devotion on the basis of Scripture and prohibits anyone from condemning proper devotion. Scripture nowhere bans asking the saints in heaven for their prayers--so, please, do not add such a man-made ban.

Scripture does; he just doesn't know it.
Deuteronomy 18:10 & 11 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead".

Isaiah 8:19 "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

QUEEN MOTHER OF THE NEW DAVIDIC KINGDOM
The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. Upon her Assumption into heaven He Son placed her in her well deserved place beside His throne as mother of the King of kings. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1 'clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. As Christ's mother she reflects His light just as the moon reflects the light of the sun and she calls all her children in the family of the Church to follow her Son and to do, as she advised the servants at the wedding at Cana, whatever He tells you [John 2:5].

Libby, the woman in Rev 12 is the Jewish believing community (the Messianic Jews), NOT THE VIRGIN MARY! Jesus came from the Jewish lineage of David, born in Bethlehem in Judea, the Root of Jesse, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, etc.

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sins, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966 [quoting Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950); Revelation 19:16; and from the Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition.

Libby that is soo wrong! That's like saying that, since Elvis was called the king, he must be Jesus...

The "assumption" of a human is a blessed event and only 3 biblical people went through it: Enoch, Elijah & Jesus. Show me where the Bible says that Mary was sinless, assumed into heaven or a perpetual virgin and I'll believe it. (And she was NOT God's mother!)

 

[ItalianScallion]

i dont know that i have ever used "anti-god arguments". what i tend to do is take issue with people who 'think' they have it all figured out and that they somehow have the right to tell everyone else that they are doing it wrong.

Yes you have used anti-God arguments; Everytime you've denied Jesus on here or said that the Bible is not from God.

So no one can be a good doctor in your eyes because they aren't allowed to "have it all figured out"?
No one can be a good mechanic for the same reasons?
And I cannot "have it all figured out" since I've studied the Bible for 22 years, but you (who read it once) DOES have it all figured out? Let's hear from you "POT"...

You have no clue as to the one truth (if there even is one), and you and starmann certainly dont have any right to attack what others believe. You will notice that i usually only weigh in on these threads when someone (usualy you or starmann) chooses to attack anothers beliefs, or use their religion in an attempt to justify their bigotry (towards muslims, catholics, atheists etc.). you guys get really offended when i hold up your own rules and point out that you are violating them while preaching to the world that you know the only truth.

I have one heck of a clue and I DO have the right (and the mandate) to tell others what to believe. They have the right NOT TO, but I still have the right to tell them.

You need to look up the word bigotry. I harbor no hatred towards anyone. I do hate what they believe, but not them.

I notice that...you attacked me instead of addressing the fact that you are in direct violation of these parts of the good book. EXTREMELY HYPOCRITICAL but what else would you expect from a false prophet

How did I attack you? I stated exactly what you do on here. If you're that thin skinned, you shouldn't come out to play with other people...