Pope John Paul II one step closer...

[onel0126]

Preachers are sure enough prone to downfalls in their ministry when they are out of touch in their walk with God - just like priests and bishops of the RCC.

Without a doubt.

 

[Starman3000m]

Without a doubt.

Time for us to move on and share how neat it is to know God whereby we have a loving spiritual relationship through Christ. Knowing that through repentance and God's Grace we receive Divine Forgiveness and Eternal Life.
Not for what we have done but only through what Christ has done.
(John 14:6)

 

[Bavarian]

Preachers are sure enough prone to downfalls in their ministry when they are out of touch in their walk with God - just like priests and bishops of the RCC.

Unfortunatly, their transgressions to not receive the major publicity of the transgressions of a few priests, many who have passed away.

(This is not meant to start another tangent!)

Shame we can not have a real religion forum, open to all and all opinions where everyone is free to discuss things without having the discussion spin down into circular name calling.

This thread was about the upcomming Beatification of Pope John Paul II, not all this extraneous baggage. I am happy to know, read, and occasionaly post on a real religion site.

 

[Starman3000m]

Unfortunatly, their transgressions to not receive the major publicity of the transgressions of a few priests, many who have passed away.

(This is not meant to start another tangent!)

Shame we can not have a real religion forum, open to all and all opinions where everyone is free to discuss things without having the discussion spin down into circular name calling.

This thread was about the upcomming Beatification of Pope John Paul II, not all this extraneous baggage. I am happy to know, read, and occasionaly post on a real religion site.

C'mon Bavarian, you should realize that no matter how much effort one makes to stick to the subject on hand it is quite easy to go

 

[PsyOps]

The Trinity is One God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We know this because this dogma dates to the 4th Century at the Council of Nicea, AD 325. Therefore, you can see that we can not use the Bible along to understand the Word of God. We require magisterium and ecumenical councils, factors outside the Bible to understand the Bible.

I couldn’t disagree more. How could we possibly know that this country had a Revolutionary War except that witnesses that were there wrote about it? You can’t get information about something from nothing. There has to be a source; first hand accounts.

The Bible is THE standard in which we understand EVERYTHING about God and His Son. If we were to remove the Bible from existence what would be the reference for anything the magisterium and ecumenical councils knew? Don’t you believe there has to be a fundamental source? And information derived from that source must be accurate IAW with source. I mean outside of that, aren’t people just making it up?

 

[Bavarian]

I couldn’t disagree more. How could we possibly know that this country had a Revolutionary War except that witnesses that were there wrote about it? You can’t get information about something from nothing. There has to be a source; first hand accounts.

The Bible is THE standard in which we understand EVERYTHING about God and His Son. If we were to remove the Bible from existence what would be the reference for anything the magisterium and ecumenical councils knew? Don’t you believe there has to be a fundamental source? And information derived from that source must be accurate IAW with source. I mean outside of that, aren’t people just making it up?

Do you not know that the 27 books in the N.T Bible were decided by the Catholic Church by the end of the 4th century (Synod of Hippo, in 393 AD). Therefore, the books that we take as the Word of God were decided by the Catholic Church. Or in other words you are unknowingly accepting the authority of the Catholic Church.

We also know much about U.S. history orally, passed down from generation to generation. Stories of life not written down. The Native Americans, AKA American Indians, have oral histories, We all have oral histories about our families and even though the same era has been written down, these oral histories add to our knowledge.

 

[Starman3000m]

Do you not know that the 27 books in the N.T Bible were decided by the Catholic Church by the end of the 4th century (Synod of Hippo, in 393 AD). Therefore, the books that we take as the Word of God were decided by the Catholic Church. Or in other words you are unknowingly accepting the authority of the Catholic Church.

We also know much about U.S. history orally, passed down from generation to generation. Stories of life not written down. The Native Americans, AKA American Indians, have oral histories, We all have oral histories about our families and even though the same era has been written down, these oral histories add to our knowledge.

The point being made, Bavarian, was that the writings of the Holy Bible were all the first-hand accounts of the Jewish Apostles. The Holy Bible is a compilation of the writings of Old Testament Jewish Prophets which comprise Orthodox Judaism's Tanakh combined with God's fulfillment of His New Covenant account as revealed through Jesus and written by His chosen Jewish Apostles who represented one from each tribe of Israel.

The writings of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit of God (2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16) and already being used by 1st Century Messianic Jews. They would have been available for the ongoing ministry of The Great Commission no matter what. The fact that Rome had a hand in organizing the already written scriptures into a book does not mean that the contents of the scriptures belong to Rome. The Scriptures are God's Words to all mankind and were not intended to have any one organized religion take credit for the contents.

There Is Only One Truth

 

[PsyOps]

Do you not know that the 27 books in the N.T Bible were decided by the Catholic Church by the end of the 4th century (Synod of Hippo, in 393 AD). Therefore, the books that we take as the Word of God were decided by the Catholic Church. Or in other words you are unknowingly accepting the authority of the Catholic Church.

This is not accurate. Synod of Hippo was an African region where a Christian Church, not affiliated with the Catholic Church, chose the ‘original canons’ of the New Testament that the Catholic Church later adopted. This is centuries of deception by your Church.

Even if what you claim were true, I don’t see what relevance this has in claiming there can be doctrine on God and Christ that is not derived from the Bible. How can you claim to have founded the New Testament in one breath and in another claim you don’t have to use it?

We also know much about U.S. history orally, passed down from generation to generation. Stories of life not written down. The Native Americans, AKA American Indians, have oral histories, We all have oral histories about our families and even though the same era has been written down, these oral histories add to our knowledge.

There is nothing we know as absolute fact without first-hand, historical accounts of it.

 

[Bavarian]

Not all texts were put in the New Testament. Decisions had to be made on which were just good texts, but not the inspired Word of God. St. Polycarp's writings, for instance, were rejected along with other Gospels such as the Gnostic Gospels.

 

[Starman3000m]

Not all texts were put in the New Testament. Decisions had to be made on which were just good texts, but not the inspired Word of God. St. Polycarp's writings, for instance, were rejected along with other Gospels such as the Gnostic Gospels.

The result of the compilation still turns out to be the same Bavarian.

IOW: We need to give credit where credit is due.
The New Testament Scriptures are still attributed exclusively as being inspired writings of the 1st Century Jewish Apostles under the guidance of God's Holy Spirit. It is what Jesus told His Apostles would happen:

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

The New Testament Scriptures are God's Words to mankind (not Rome's words) and there was nothing else that needed to be added from that point on. Therein, the Holy Bible contains all that is needed to know about Creation, mankind's broken relationship with God and how to be reconciled to receive Eternal Life through faith in the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ.

God's Plan of Salvation is fulfilled and His Message to mankind is complete within the front and back covers of the Holy Bible.

 

[ItalianScallion]

While I respect your opinion I disagree on most things. But to invoke your paranoia above shows your degree of fear. What do they have to fear from people leaving? Don't say money--trust me that's not it. People have been leaving the RCC for decades--because the RCC will not change its stance on social issues. They find a church where they can make an altar call, feel good about being born again and go about their merry way still a sinner--kind of a one and done type of deal. Great friends of mine left the RCC this summer--I asked why--I was told by the wife, my kid doesn't like Mass--he thinks its boring. I asked what he liked about their new church--she said he plays basketball and video games and gets jiggy with the "praise music."

At 17 years old, I left the RCC for good and not because of their social stances, but because of their meaningless repetition week after week. I was no more saved than the man in the moon but I was bored to tears. Learning about God shouldn't be boring...

You cannot tell me that the RCC isn't about membership & money. They are a BIG money organization. There are zillions of $$$ to be made in the sale of statues, lighting candles, feasts of the second collection and the mandatory "holydays", etc.

Are you saying that a believer must be bored to tears to be saved? He cannot play "b ball & video games or get jiggy wit the praise music"? That won't bring in many converts.

First, we do not sell alcohol, we give it away for a free-will offering.

Are you listening to yourself? Money is exchanged for a product; that's a sale any way you slice it.

We follow the Church founded by Christ, and we all hope to get to the same place. Only we know it is an ongoing struggle, not an "Oh, I am born-again and no more worries!" Plus, I believe being born-again means being baptised by the sprinkling of water. That is our entrance to the highway to Heaven. We will not know if we are saved until death and personal Judgement.

May God help your misguided doctrine my friend. So are you saying that John was wrong and had no clue when he wrote this:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God..." 1 John 5:13
How can you live NOT knowing if you'll make it to Heaven or not? Isn't your God strong enough to assure you of this? You'll try to be good enough to work your way in but still not know until you die?

Born again means to be spiritually reborn; it has nothing to do with whether one is baptized or not. When you are old enough to know the truth, you must make a conscious choice to believe in and follow the commands of God. That's called being born again. Jesus told this to Nicodemus who thought being born again meant re-entering his mother's womb. Jesus said a man must be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). Water represents human birth and the Spirit represents spiritual birth.

Shame we can not have a real religion forum, open to all and all opinions where everyone is free to discuss things without having the discussion spin down into circular name calling.

What name calling??? Yeah, it's a shame that Jesus had to ruin it by being soo narrow minded in saying that He was the ONLY way to Heaven...How dare He!

This thread was about the upcomming Beatification of Pope John Paul II, not all this extraneous baggage.

If it wasn't a sin or falsehood, there would be no "baggage". You are free to keep talking about the original topic just as we are free to talk about the false doctrines involved here...

Not all texts were put in the New Testament. Decisions had to be made on which were just good texts, but not the inspired Word of God. St. Polycarp's writings, for instance, were rejected along with other Gospels such as the Gnostic Gospels.

Nothing in Scripture is "un-inspired". Those letters they left out were writings that didn't fit the "mold" of the Canonical 66 books. Those are the ones that contradict inspired Scripture and lead you down the wrong path...

 

[2ndAmendment]

I find it very saddening that the Christians are fighting among themselves.

Roman Catholics fighting Protestants and Protestants fighting Roman Catholics. I have no doubt that if there were Byzantine Catholics present, they would be disagreeing with both. And of course, there is the divide between non=Pentecostals and Pentecostals.

Much of what is being argued is doctrine. Doctrine is from men. It is the interpretation of a man or group of men of Scripture. The Bible is not fallible, but the interpretation by men is.

Some churches believe all Catholics are going to hell. Some Catholics believe that all non-Catholics are going to hell. I am certain that there are Catholics that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is the Savior, and have made Him Lord of their lives. I just as certain that there are those of all Christian faiths that have done the same. I am also certain that there are those in every church of every denomination or non-denomination that are pew riders that are on their way to the lake of fire.

We are judged by what we judge. Our own judgments condemn ourselves.

Shouldn't we concentrate on proclaiming the Gospel of God? There are more lost in the recent generations than there are saved. It used to be that if a family was not in church Sunday morning it was very unusual. Now it is unusual for families to be in church. That is our fault. Instead of fighting over doctrine, we should be inviting our neighbors to church. We should be living our lives so that they shine.

Quite frankly, these threads of argument between Catholic and non-Catholic over doctrine are dark and ugly and bring dishonor to God.

 

[hvp05]

I find it very saddening that the Christians are fighting among themselves.

In circles and circles they go. What's the point?

 

[Starman3000m]

I find it very saddening that the Christians are fighting among themselves.

Roman Catholics fighting Protestants and Protestants fighting Roman Catholics. I have no doubt that if there were Byzantine Catholics present, they would be disagreeing with both. And of course, there is the divide between non=Pentecostals and Pentecostals.

Much of what is being argued is doctrine. Doctrine is from men. It is the interpretation of a man or group of men of Scripture. The Bible is not fallible, but the interpretation by men is.

Some churches believe all Catholics are going to hell. Some Catholics believe that all non-Catholics are going to hell. I am certain that there are Catholics that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is the Savior, and have made Him Lord of their lives. I just as certain that there are those of all Christian faiths that have done the same. I am also certain that there are those in every church of every denomination or non-denomination that are pew riders that are on their way to the lake of fire.

We are judged by what we judge. Our own judgments condemn ourselves.

Shouldn't we concentrate on proclaiming the Gospel of God? There are more lost in the recent generations than there are saved. It used to be that if a family was not in church Sunday morning it was very unusual. Now it is unusual for families to be in church. That is our fault. Instead of fighting over doctrine, we should be inviting our neighbors to church. We should be living our lives so that they shine.

Quite frankly, these threads of argument between Catholic and non-Catholic over doctrine are dark and ugly and bring dishonor to God.

Well 2A, there had to have been a reason that the Protestant Reformation occurred and why there has been the ongoing rift between the theology that claims Mary and the patron saints are as much a mediator as the Lord Jesus Christ.

There had to have been a reason why the Protestant Reformation proclaimed that papal authority and the RCC are not necessarily exclusively granted the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Had there been no basis on which to challenge RCC doctrinal errors you, my friend, would be under the authority of the papacy right now and believing that Mary was a perpetual virgin, assumed into Heaven and reigns there as mediatrix - able to help souls get into Heaven.

You are free to believe as you wish and extend a concessionary hand to those who are following a doctrine that dilutes the Divine power of Jesus and shares it with others whose images have been made into statues.

Not me, sir. I will continue to love those who are not following the Truth of the Holy Bible and allow the Holy Spirit's guidance to point out Truth from error, lest their souls be left to wander in the darkness of a deceptive faith in false teachings.

As I have stated before, I am no better than anyone else in the eyes of God, and as the Apostle Paul stated, I could be placed in the category of chief of sinners. BUT, I have come to repentance and have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ. As a born again Christian, I am compelled to share the Biblical Truths of Salvation through the New Testament Christ alone and to point people to the True Jesus whether it is to Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., all whose followers believe in another Gospel and another Jesus!

My faith will not become lukewarm through concessions that allow others to follow religious paths of deception. If I am wrong for contending for the True Faith in Christ then God will judge me and I will answer to Him alone.

 

[hvp05]

My faith will not become lukewarm through concessions that allow others to follow religious paths of deception.

With all due respect, Starman, you sound about as paranoid as the atheists who cry that Christians are routinely "forcing" them to convert. Why would your salvation depend on someone else's beliefs/actions one way or another?

PsyOps seems to have a much simpler "live and let die" approach and, quite frankly, appears better off for it.

If I am wrong for contending for the True Faith in Christ then God will judge me and I will answer to Him alone.

RCs and other Christians believe the same thing, despite your barrage of scripture. :shrug:

 

[Starman3000m]

With all due respect, Starman, you sound about as paranoid as the atheists who cry that Christians are routinely "forcing" them to convert. Why would your salvation depend on someone else's beliefs/actions one way or another?

PsyOps seems to have a much simpler "live and let die" approach and, quite frankly, appears better off for it.

RCs and other Christians believe the same thing, despite your barrage of scripture. :shrug:

Thank you for your comment hvp05.
I do not take the "live and let die" approach and I am at peace with God in my concern over souls who are trusting the wrong Jesus for their Salvation. This is part of the Great Commission for which I am called to partake of.

There Is Only One Truth

 

[Bavarian]

I find it very saddening that the Christians are fighting among themselves.

Roman Catholics fighting Protestants and Protestants fighting Roman Catholics. I have no doubt that if there were Byzantine Catholics present, they would be disagreeing with both. And of course, there is the divide between non=Pentecostals and Pentecostals.

Much of what is being argued is doctrine. Doctrine is from men. It is the interpretation of a man or group of men of Scripture. The Bible is not fallible, but the interpretation by men is.

Some churches believe all Catholics are going to hell. Some Catholics believe that all non-Catholics are going to hell. I am certain that there are Catholics that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is the Savior, and have made Him Lord of their lives. I just as certain that there are those of all Christian faiths that have done the same. I am also certain that there are those in every church of every denomination or non-denomination that are pew riders that are on their way to the lake of fire.

We are judged by what we judge. Our own judgments condemn ourselves.

Shouldn't we concentrate on proclaiming the Gospel of God? There are more lost in the recent generations than there are saved. It used to be that if a family was not in church Sunday morning it was very unusual. Now it is unusual for families to be in church. That is our fault. Instead of fighting over doctrine, we should be inviting our neighbors to church. We should be living our lives so that they shine.

Quite frankly, these threads of argument between Catholic and non-Catholic over doctrine are dark and ugly and bring dishonor to God.

Thank you for the sentiments. Let us all stop fighting over who is to be saved and let that be up to God. We all need to get more people to Church on Sunday, or Saturday evening vigil). I talked to people who quit going once their kids grew. My wife and I take our Faith seriously, but we don't try to convert others. The only time I get worked up is when I am attacked. It is bad when fewer and fewer people go to Mass and so many don't go on Holy Days of Obligation. And if you don't have money for the collection, dont give, only give if you can.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord and one another, amen.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I find it very saddening that the Christians are fighting among themselves.
Much of what is being argued is doctrine. Doctrine is from men. It is the interpretation of a man or group of men of Scripture. The Bible is not fallible, but the interpretation by men is. I am certain that there are Catholics that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is the Savior, and have made Him Lord of their lives. I am also certain that there are those in every church of every denomination or non-denomination that are pew riders that are on their way to the lake of fire. Instead of fighting over doctrine, we should be inviting our neighbors to church. Quite frankly, these threads of argument between Catholic and non-Catholic over doctrine are dark and ugly and bring dishonor to God.

Thanks for playing the "devil's advocate" 2A, but you've just contradicted yourself. If you say there are Christians and non Christians in every church, then what I'm doing is justified. If ALL Catholics are Christians, then I'm wrong in what I'm doing but, if they are Christians, they won't be going to Hell and the Spirit of God won't let them be comfortable doing the things I'm fussing about. You've failed to understand how clever the devil has been with Catholicism. His subtlety is what keeps Matthew 7:21 true. (You should read up on how the RCC was started and you'll see why I'm soo passionate about what I'm doing).

What we're discussing in not simple doctrine, it's major heresy. As I've said before: if it were a secondary or "disputable" matter, (age of the earth or what day to go to church) I wouldn't give them much more than post or two. Discounting God's power and clear word about who to pray to and who not to pray to, and elevating humans up to equality with Jesus is what the RCC is known for. It is FAR from "disputable" and the devil loves it...

And, true, I cannot judge the salvation of the 4 or 5 Catholic posters on here, but I can surely tell them that, many years ago I was where they are, but THANK GOD He pulled me out of it. God didn't save me out of it so that I'd be silent about their wrong teachings. Here's what I used to do:

I went to Catholic school and Catholic church till I was 17,
I prayed to God & the saints every night,
I had the statues (idols) that I prayed to in my room, the scapulars, the rosary beads on my bed post,
I was baptized & "confirmed",
I told a creepy "priest" my sins and all the rest but guess what? I was STILL on the highway to Hell, all the while thinking that I was Heaven bound. Ok? See? Still don't think it's a problem worth contending for? Well it is my friend!

While I fully agree that, not everyone in every denomination is saved, you honestly cannot expect the 4 or 5 Catholic folks here to just leave their church and go to your church (as you've suggested) and find out the truth. But you still don't think I'm "proclaiming the Gospel of God" eh?

You and PsyOps both have similar ways of "contending" (although at times, different from mine). I have no problem with it, nor do I jump on you two for the way you do it. One body, many different parts (and many different ways of speaking the truth). Thanks for listening...

 

[2ndAmendment]

Matthew 7:1-5 (New American Standard Bible)

Judging Others
1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Why should we condemn others, even other Christians, when the One that has every right to condemn did not. Those that are not under conviction, condemn themselves.

John 3:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 17:20-21 (New American Standard Bible)

20"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well 2A, there had to have been a reason that the Protestant Reformation occurred and why there has been the ongoing rift between the theology that claims Mary and the patron saints are as much a mediator as the Lord Jesus Christ....

Every church, the Roman Catholic, and the independent Baptist, the Church of God, and the Anglican church, and any other one would care to name has erred in that they are made up of humans.

Please, I am not posting this as an attack. I have been in the Vatican several times. I know that it is tradition that the Pope is infallible. The history of some of the Popes is that they had prostitutes visiting them, were homosexuals, committed or had committed murders and were certainly not exemplifying Christian life.

I also know that there have been many "stellar" protestant ministers, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, and others that were not leading a Christian life.

Some have been repentant; some have not.

Humans sin. Biblical fact.

Romans 3:21-27 (New American Standard Bible)

Justification by Faith
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

There has been no prefect human other than Jesus Christ since we got tossed out of the garden.

I put my faith in God not in men. I am, as are all Christians, saved by faith through grace. I believe in Jesus Christ as God incarnate, my Savior and my Lord.

May God grant us peace with one another, faith to faith, that we may bring Light and Peace to those in the dark.