Pot use disproportionately hurting the poor

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'm not arguing, but can you provide the studies that show the lower alcohol and narcotic use, and lower violence rates for those involved in wacky-tabakky use?

No, I can't. I don't know that they exist. However, it seems obvious to me that if people are not getting popped for weed possession and dealing, because it's legal, that's gonna save them some dough and if they're getting stoned instead of using alcohol, that, we know, is a health plus in every way. Further, it would be useful if your link said what dope driving busts were and what they've become. I don't know about you but I'll take a stoned kid over a drunk one behind the wheel every single time.

To say poor dopers spend a higher percentage of their income on dope than their educational betters is to leave out that the poor, stone or otherwise, spend a higher percentage of their income on EVERYTHING than their educational betters. You have to ask yourself what the motivation of any article is. I see a plea for more prohibition based on arguments that seem rather easy to dismiss or counter. But, no, I don't have a study to back it up. :buddies:
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Yes. A voluntary one. Because you know, pot is not addictive right. So every time someone lights up, they make a voluntary decision to do so. Because it's not addictive. Nobody is addicted to cannabis. And its healthy for you, because there wouldn't be 'medical cannabis' if it wasn't. And it never has anything to do with violent crimes. And nobody has ever died from smoking pot, well except for the folks who did, but who is counting. And its not addictive, and good for you.

You left out the part about how it increases one's personal responsibility for their life, family, school and job attendance, job production, work place safety, etc. i believe that was in the article as well.
 

cricketmd

Member
Sure. The title and post show the poor are disproportionately affected, so arguing the point I thought you missed it.

Now I'm unsure what point you're trying to make besides basic math.


You don't have to be ignorant.

I don't personally find 28% to be a super staggering high number to say that there's any great "disproportion". 72% yes, 28% not really. I see it more of a grasping at straws sensationalism. Ask what percentage of that group that plays lottery and drinks and I'm quite sure that its higher than 28%. :yay: Not sure how I can make this any clearer.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Yes. A voluntary one. Because you know, pot is not addictive right. So every time someone lights up, they make a voluntary decision to do so. Because it's not addictive. Nobody is addicted to cannabis. And its healthy for you, because there wouldn't be 'medical cannabis' if it wasn't. And it never has anything to do with violent crimes. And nobody has ever died from smoking pot, well except for the folks who did, but who is counting. And its not addictive, and good for you.
Have to admit, it was the second time I read that with my jaw on the floor before I saw the :sarcasm: in it. :lol:
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I'm not arguing, but can you provide the studies that show the lower alcohol and narcotic use, and lower violence rates for those involved in wacky-tabakky use?

Studies on opiod use/addiction in states with marijuana:

States with medical cannabis laws had a 24.8% lower mean annual opioid overdose mortality rate (95% CI, −37.5% to −9.5%; P = .003) compared with states without medical cannabis laws. Examination of the association between medical cannabis laws and opioid analgesic overdose mortality in each year after implementation of the law showed that such laws were associated with a lower rate of overdose mortality that generally strengthened over time: year 1 (−19.9%; 95% CI, −30.6% to −7.7%; P = .002), year 2 (−25.2%; 95% CI, −40.6% to −5.9%; P = .01), year 3 (−23.6%; 95% CI, −41.1% to −1.0%; P = .04), year 4 (−20.2%; 95% CI, −33.6% to −4.0%; P = .02), year 5 (−33.7%; 95% CI, −50.9% to −10.4%; P = .008), and year 6 (−33.3%; 95% CI, −44.7% to −19.6%; P < .001). In secondary analyses, the findings remained similar.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1898878

In states where it is legal to use medical marijuana to manage chronic pain and other conditions, the annual number of deaths from prescription drug overdose is 25 percent lower than in states where medical marijuana remains illegal, new research suggests.
http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-rele...ed-to-lower-prescription-overdose-deaths.html

Rather, we find that medical marijuana laws that legalize dispensaries reduce substance abuse treatments for opioids. Our estimates imply eductions in treatment admissions of about 20%, with even larger reductions suggested by synthetic control estimation. We also find reductions in opioid-related mortality.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/WR1130.html

The survey shows marijuana use has not increased since legalization, with four of five high school students continuing to say they don’t use marijuana, even occasionally. Alcohol use continues to decline, with nearly seven of 10 saying they had not used alcohol in the past 30 days. And nine of 10 Colorado high school youth say they don’t smoke cigarettes, the highest rejection of smoking by high school youth in the past decade.
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cdphe/news/HKCS2015
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/PF_Youth_MJ-Infographic-Digital.pdf

As far as alcohol use, Colorado has not seen any difference.
In the 18 months since recreational sales were legalized in Colorado, “we’ve just seen phenomenal growth”, said Justin Martz, 32, who runs Mr B’s Wine & Spirits in downtown Denver. He noted that there was some concern initially about legalization, “but it’s really turned out to be a non-issue”. In fact, he said, “if anything it’s kind of helped us. A high tide lifts all boats.”

But...
Part of the reason for the alcohol and marijuana industries’ success may be a boost in Colorado tourism. Though some state officials insist marijuana is not attracting new visitors, Colorado tourism set record highs in 2014, the first year of legalization, with 71.3 million visitors who collectively spent $18.6bn
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/31/alcohol-industry-sales-marijuana-colorado

Using data from the Center for Disease Control’s Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, this study shows that marijuana legalization has no statistically significant effect on alcohol consumption.
https://economics.nd.edu/assets/165128/alex_good_research_paper1.pdf

It's saved time in Colorado courts also.
The total number of marijuana court cases fell from 39,027 in 2011 to 2,036 cases in 2014. Those 37,000 fewer cases represent a savings of untold millions of dollars in court costs and law enforcement fees. They represent 37,000 fewer people who have to deal with the stigma and financial burden of an arrest and possible conviction. They represent countless police man-hours able to be devoted to other tasks.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ter-legalization-colorado-pot-arrests-plunge/

In addition, Colorado's tax revenue is increasing.
Through the first seven months of this year, Colorado has brought in nearly $73.5m, putting the state on pace to collect over $125m for the year.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/21/colorado-marijuana-tax-revenues-2015

As far as crime (though it's entirely too early to tell if the decreases, or increases in some areas, is a direct result of marijuana legalization):
The Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has released the 2014 Crime in Colorado Report. The report includes statewide crime statistics reported by 249 law enforcement agencies across Colorado. Overall, a decrease of 1.0% in crime was reported for 2014.

The findings in this report note a 1.9% increase in violent crimes and a 3.1% decrease in property crimes, with an overall decrease of 2.5% in the crime rate per 100,000 population.

Homicide decreased by 12.8%, while Other Assaults crime showed an increase of 6.9% in 2014.
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cbi/news/2014-crime-colorado-report-available
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
You don't have to be ignorant.

I don't personally find 28% to be a super staggering high number to say that there's any great "disproportion". 72% yes, 28% not really. I see it more of a grasping at straws sensationalism. Ask what percentage of that group that plays lottery and drinks and I'm quite sure that its higher than 28%. :yay: Not sure how I can make this any clearer.

If I told you black citizens make up 13.2% of the population, but 37.7% of those incarcerated, would you find that significant? I mean, that says that 62.3% aren't black, so it's not an issue, right?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
...And nobody has ever died from smoking pot, well except for the folks who did, but who is counting. And its not addictive....

I understand you're being sarcastic, but no, it's not physically addictive and no one has ever died from smoking marijuana.

Funny story: I was in a town hall somewhat recently regarding the medical marijuana laws in MD and the speaker said "No one has ever died from smoking marijuana", a person in the audience shouted "I have tried though". Everyone cracked up, including the multiple police officers in the room. :lol:
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
You left out the part about how it increases one's personal responsibility for their life, family, school and job attendance, job production, work place safety, etc. i believe that was in the article as well.

Oh, I forgot.

The other day I had someone argue with me that a good number of the high functioning (C-suite) individuals he was working with were regular users. I believe this claim to be complete and utter bull####.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I understand you're being sarcastic, but no, it's not physically addictive
Well, no, that's not really true.

Is it as addictive as heroin? Well, no.

But, it is addictive
Marijuana Addiction is Rare said:
About 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become abusers, according to a study endorsed by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA). Other estimates have placed that number even higher, with young people particularly susceptible to dependency.
and no one has ever died from smoking marijuana.
Not exactly true, either. From a 2013 article:
A new study conducted in Colorado shows an increase in kids seen at Emergency Departments ever since medical marijuana laws were liberalized in 2009. In more than three years prior to that, zero kids went to the ER for marijuana overdose. But in the two years after the changes, 14 kids were confirmed to have overdosed on marijuana. Half the poisonings in Colorado were linked to edibles.

Now, will more people be killed from, "hold my beer and watch this" than what we're seeing? Yes.

Funny story: I was in a town hall somewhat recently regarding the medical marijuana laws in MD and the speaker said "No one has ever died from smoking marijuana", a person in the audience shouted "I have tried though". Everyone cracked up, including the multiple police officers in the room. :lol:
Cute story :lol:
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
I understand you're being sarcastic, but no, it's not physically addictive and no one has ever died from smoking marijuana.

While we are splitting hairs, while gambling is not physically addictive, there are certainly gambling addicts. Cannabis addicts show all the behaviors that go with addiction, but yes there is no or only minimal physical withdrawal from Cannabis.
Same hair-splitting with the risk of death. If you only count a direct toxic effect, yes so far nobody has succumbed to that yet. If you include cases where someone became psychotic and engaged in self harming behavior (jump off a roof, drive a car, fly a plane while impaired, engage in inter-personal violence), there is a considerable body count.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
:yay:

Good post.

What is your opinion of the so-called stupidity tax, the disproportionate increase in "the poor" using pot?

I can disagree with most of what the govt. spends our money on, but the fact is, govt. needs tax money to fund things that are mutually beneficial to all of us. Schools, roads, etc. I see no problem with putting a tax on it. I think laws should allow people to grow their own, but for those who don't want to or don't have the means, a modest tax shouldn't be a big deal. That being said, if the govt. tries to tax it too much, that could cause the black market to take over (again). Call it a "stupidity tax" or simply a "tax" (because we don't call a cigarette or alcohol tax a "stupidity tax"), I'm okay with it. Those stoners are padding govt. coffers and paying for new schools, new roads, etc.

As far as poor people using marijuana, I don't think they suddenly started using it when it became legal. I'm sure they used some sort of vice in order to distance themselves from their poor life choices/decisions or the situation they are in. Whether it be marijuana or alcohol or cigarettes or gambling.

One particular passage stood out to me:
..."despite the popular stereotype of marijuana users as well-off and well-educated . . . they lag behind national averages” on both income and schooling.

For instance, people who have a household income of less than $20,000 a year comprise 19 percent of the population but make up 28 percent of marijuana users. And even though those who earn more than $75,000 make up 33 percent of the population, 25 percent of them are marijuana users. Having more education also seems to make it less likely that you are a user. College graduates make up 27 percent of the population but only 19 percent of marijuana users.

I always assumed the popular stereotype of a marijuana user was an unmotivated person living in mom's basement not doing much. Not they are lawyers and doctors.

But the poor, who already have a hard time holding down jobs and taking care of their families, are more frequently using a drug that makes it harder for them to focus, to remember things and to behave responsibly.

How is this the case? While a slightly higher percentage of a minority uses marijuana, a much larger group of well-off people was just pointed out to use it as well. If 25% of 33% of the population, including college grads, use marijuana, maybe it's not living up to the other popular stereotype that it "makes it harder for them to focus, to remember things and to behave responsibly"?

The new study, which looked at use rates between 1992 and 2013, also found that the intensity of use had increased in this time. The proportion of users who smoke daily or near daily has increased from 1 in 9 to 1 in 3. As Davenport tells me, “This dispels the idea that the typical user is someone on weekends who has a casual habit.”

I question if this is simply because of the lax laws that came in the latter parts of the study. Were people really not daily users back in, say, 1998 when only 2 states legalized it for medical purposes or did they simply not want to say so for a study?

If it is truly the case, and that many more people are smoking daily, it coincides with an ever-increasing number of states liberalizing their marijuana laws. We've also seen the economy grow, tank, and recover in that time period. We've also seen a major decrease in violent crime from around 1994 until now to the tune of 45% between the early 90's until now.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
While we are splitting hairs, while gambling is not physically addictive, there are certainly gambling addicts. Cannabis addicts show all the behaviors that go with addiction, but yes there is no or only minimal physical withdrawal from Cannabis.
Same hair-splitting with the risk of death. If you only count a direct toxic effect, yes so far nobody has succumbed to that yet. If you include cases where someone became psychotic and engaged in self harming behavior (jump off a roof, drive a car, fly a plane while impaired, engage in inter-personal violence), there is a considerable body count.

Coffee addicts. Carbohydrate addicts. Forum addicts.

Is there a list somewhere showing stoned people and the harm they do themselves and others while stoned v. drunk people and the harm they do themselves and others while drunk? Would that be interesting or is that one of those things we all can readily say, hands down, is going to show an easily predictable result?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
While we are splitting hairs, while gambling is not physically addictive, there are certainly gambling addicts. Cannabis addicts show all the behaviors that go with addiction, but yes there is no or only minimal physical withdrawal from Cannabis.
Same hair-splitting with the risk of death. If you only count a direct toxic effect, yes so far nobody has succumbed to that yet. If you include cases where someone became psychotic and engaged in self harming behavior (jump off a roof, drive a car, fly a plane while impaired, engage in inter-personal violence), there is a considerable body count.

I'm just saying, I think it's important to clarify things like this. Especially in a public setting where people's opinions can be greatly influenced by stats and info that's blurted out with any sort of background info.

Marijuana doesn't have physically addictive properties. But many other substances readily available to Americans do. Somehow we've been able to combat these on a larger scale and give treatment opportunities to those that are addicted, physically or mentally. Hence why a public health angle is a better method to combat substance abuse than a criminal one.

Why would someone include behavior (where no one died, using your examples of simply doing things) as a means to determine morality rates?

Did they smoke marijuana and die? Yes or no? No. No one has, in the thousands of years of history of marijuana, no one has. Did they smoke and jump in front of a train and die? Then the cause of death is not marijuana, it was the train.

That's why the "driving while stoned" statistic sort-of bothers me. Simply having THC in one's system means "marijuana-related accident" to the news and police. THC can stay in one's system for months, it metabolizes differently than alcohol so even if a concentration of THC were published, it doesn't really mean the same as .08 BAC, for example.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Well, no, that's not really true.

Is it as addictive as heroin? Well, no.

But, it is addictive
Not exactly true, either. From a 2013 article:

Now, will more people be killed from, "hold my beer and watch this" than what we're seeing? Yes.

You can see my other post for clarification, but there was a reason for my wording.

The story you linked discussed marijuana overdoses. OD does not mean death. A marijuana overdose is:
•Temporary feelings of paranoia, fear and anxiety
•Shortness of breath
•Pupil dilation
•Vomiting and/or nausea
•Fast heart rate
•Shaking that is hard to control, feeling cold
•Disorientation or hallucinations
• Hangover

This phenomenon passes on its own within minutes to hours of marijuana use...

In other words, the side effects of some FDA-approved drugs. :lol:

There have been a number of scientific studies on the main chemical in marijuana, THC. This drug is a cannabinoid and in the field of science known as, tetrahydrocannabinol. These studies are pretty conclusive on the fact that THC is a “psychoactive” substance and can cause people to become high when ingested, but they have not found any evidence that it is toxic to the body.

In order to determine how much of a drug would be fatal, scientists came up with a formula known as “lethal dosage.” They then test a substance until 50% of the test animals in the lab die. The formula is known as the LD-50. With this formula, it shows that very small animals such as; rats and mice, can take in as much as 1000mg per kilogram before they die. Larger animals did not even reach the LD-50 even giving them as much as 3000mg per kilogram of body weight.

What this means is that a person who weighs 140 pounds or about 63 kilograms would need to take in over 4 pounds of marijuana at once to reach the same levels as the large animal study and this still would has not been proven to be a fatal dosage. These studies have been ongoing over 30 years and researchers have yet to see a severe adverse event with the drug
http://www.newhealthguide.org/Can-You-Overdose-On-Marijuana.html
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Call it a "stupidity tax" or simply a "tax" (because we don't call a cigarette or alcohol tax a "stupidity tax"), I'm okay with it. Those stoners are padding govt. coffers and paying for new schools, new roads, etc.
We call alcohol and cigarette taxes "sin taxes". Taxes are taxes, but what I mean is whether or not you think legalizing it hurts the poor disproportionately.
As far as poor people using marijuana, I don't think they suddenly started using it when it became legal. I'm sure they used some sort of vice in order to distance themselves from their poor life choices/decisions or the situation they are in. Whether it be marijuana or alcohol or cigarettes or gambling.
I agree. This is very much a chicken/egg discussion: are they poor because they make poor life choices, including habitual and very frequent drug use, or, because they very frequently use drugs do they make poor life choices which lead them to being poor?

Not every diamond is the quality for an expensive wedding ring or necklace - some are worker diamonds sharpening other tools. And, that's ok.

How is this the case? While a slightly higher percentage of a minority uses marijuana, a much larger group of well-off people was just pointed out to use it as well. If 25% of 33% of the population, including college grads, use marijuana, maybe it's not living up to the other popular stereotype that it "makes it harder for them to focus, to remember things and to behave responsibly"?
I can see your point here. I do think that saying a significant over-representation of poor and significant under-representation of affluent implies a correlation (not causation necessarily) between drug use and financial success is accurate. To suggest the causation, we need to know the chicken-egg answer.

I question if this is simply because of the lax laws that came in the latter parts of the study. Were people really not daily users back in, say, 1998 when only 2 states legalized it for medical purposes or did they simply not want to say so for a study?

If it is truly the case, and that many more people are smoking daily, it coincides with an ever-increasing number of states liberalizing their marijuana laws. We've also seen the economy grow, tank, and recover in that time period. We've also seen a major decrease in violent crime from around 1994 until now to the tune of 45% between the early 90's until now.
Again, I'm not sure any of that is even a correlation, let alone a causation.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Coffee addicts. Carbohydrate addicts. Forum addicts.

Is there a list somewhere showing stoned people and the harm they do themselves and others while stoned v. drunk people and the harm they do themselves and others while drunk? Would that be interesting or is that one of those things we all can readily say, hands down, is going to show an easily predictable result?

Studies have shown an increase in harming others, through traffic issue, workplace accidents, etc., for both. I think to show an easy graph of the two would be next to impossible as 1) drugs have only been legal for a short period of time in a limited area of the country and 2) it's very easy to do a road-side test for BAC, but next to impossible to do a test for THC level. We'd have to rely on someone saying, "yeah, I'm really stoned - was tokin' it up while driving". You know, like drunks admit to when they're drunk-driving :lol:
 

PrchJrkr

Long Haired Country Boy
Ad Free Experience
Patron
Studies have shown an increase in harming others, through traffic issue, workplace accidents, etc., for both. I think to show an easy graph of the two would be next to impossible as 1) drugs have only been legal for a short period of time in a limited area of the country and 2) it's very easy to do a road-side test for BAC, but next to impossible to do a test for THC level. We'd have to rely on someone saying, "yeah, I'm really stoned - was tokin' it up while driving". You know, like drunks admit to when they're drunk-driving :lol:

We need to issue every patrol officer a bag of Doritos and a grape soda. If they pull a car over, and the suspect can't concentrate on what the officer says, and instead focuses on the snacks, book 'em Danno.
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
Marijuana doesn't have physically addictive properties.

That is incorrect. It does have physically addictive properties. Just because a Cannabis user doesn't go into delirium like a drunk or starts vomiting like an opiate addict doesn't mean that there are no physical symptoms of withdrawal.

But many other substances readily available to Americans do. Somehow we've been able to combat these on a larger scale and give treatment opportunities to those that are addicted, physically or mentally. Hence why a public health angle is a better method to combat substance abuse than a criminal one.

Actually, we don't know whether that is the case. The experience from the Netherlands has been that the number of cannabis addicts increased after the informal 'gedogen' policy wrt cannabis was introduced. So far, it looks like the same holds true for the jurisdictions in the US that have decriminalized cannabis on the state level. Whether that is an artifact of cannabis addicts from surrounding countries and states moving there or a result of the drug itself is difficult to tell until there is a more widespread end of prohibition.

Did they smoke marijuana and die? Yes or no? No. No one has, in the thousands of years of history of marijuana, no one has. Did they smoke and jump in front of a train and die? Then the cause of death is not marijuana, it was the train.

Mh, no. If a person who has no prior history of mental illness uses a psychoactive drug like THC, becomes psychotic and engages in self harming behavior as result of this altered mental status, there is a clear link between the drug and the death.

Same with motor vehicle accidents. THC causes significantly altered perception and thought processes, that's why people use it. On a very basic level, the drug affects reaction time and hand-eye coordination. Regular users of THC are involved in accidents at an elevated rate similar to regular abusers of alcohol.

THC can stay in one's system for months,

The active ingredient THC clears from the blood within a couple of hours (plasma half life a few hours). If someone is found with THC in their blood, it means they consumed just prior to driving and it means that they were impaired at the time of the accident.

What you are referring to are the inactive THC metabolites that remain in the system for much longer (e.g. THC-COOH has a half-life of 12 days).

it metabolizes differently than alcohol so even if a concentration of THC were published, it doesn't really mean the same as .08 BAC, for example.

That's sort of half right. There is no linear relationship between THC plasma concentration and degree of impairment. To establish a standardized approach, Colorado has chosen a particular level to define impairment, but there is very little evidence to support that level vs one 1/5th or 5 times as high. The prohibitionist approach to this would be to say that any level of active THC is disqualifying, sort of like the rules that apply to some jobs wrt to alcohol ingestion.
 
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