Random (Theology-Oriented) Musings

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
The first in a series (maybe?) of occasional thoughts, ramblings, and musings.

I was watching an online service this a.m. and the pastor made the comment that heaven is where forgiven people will spend eternity. I get what he was saying, but it struck me as a bit "wrong." Or at least, incomplete (though, for evangelistic purposes, I get why he and others say this).

My take is this: heaven isn't the place where forgiven people will spend eternity it's the place where people who accept the forgiveness on offer (by accepting Jesus as Messiah) will spend eternity.

Yes, I get it that my assertion seems to run contrary to Matthew 6:14-15. But it really doesn't conflict. Matthew 6:14-15 are verses best understood in light of Revelation 20:12-15 (especially v. 13: "each person was judged according to what they had done"). Matthew's meaning then becomes quite clear: those who fail to forgive (others) have demonstrated they haven't accepted the forgiveness God offers (i.e., forgiveness of others should be the result of accepting that we aren't deserving of forgiveness ourselves but are thankful God does anyway and as such we live so!). Anyway, back to Revelation: in a nutshell, God makes the "rules." Since these "unforgiving" people do not want to play by God's rules God graciously allows them to be judged by their own rules. Why? Because "god makes the rules" and these people are their own gods; you reap what you sow.... Btw, Luke 6:46 comes into play here (I think it is relatively clear why...).

Bottom line, in God's plan everyone has already been "forgiven." That was what happened as a result of Christ's death on the cross. This is the exact message of John 3:16-21. Since that day on the cross the issue isn't whether one is "forgiven," it's whether one accepts the forgiveness on offer by taking a "loyalty oath" to have no other god/gods than the one revealed in the OT/NT: the trinitarian God that is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18-20).* That some will choose to opt out of God's plan is certainly their choice, but it means they will be judged by "other" rules (i.e., their own).

To sum up, "Believing Loyalty" from "this"** point forward (2 Tim 4:7). That, in a nutshell, is how one is saved. One shows "believing loyalty" when one accepts the forgiveness on offer and lives life in response to that remarkable gift (again, see Luke 6:46).

So it is these people who will be spending eternity in heaven: the ones who have signed up "for God" by accepting His offered (thru Christ) forgiveness and living a loyal (to God) life in response to that offer by gratefully and graciously "doing" what Gods asks.

FWIW

Blessings on/to you and yours! Peace, as well.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

* See also (i.e., why the first couple of the "Ten Commandments" matter):

** See
Hebrews 3:15.


--- End of line (MCP)
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
My take is this: heaven isn't the place where forgiven people will spend eternity it's the place where people who accept the forgiveness on offer (by accepting Jesus as Messiah) will spend eternity.


Spot on
 

spr1975wshs

Mostly settled in...
Ad Free Experience
Patron
As a non-Christian of long standing (left Holy Mother Church in March 1975), my idea of the Afterlife is fairly simple. If one leads a Worthy Life, doing more Good than Harm, one will be reunited with the loved ones of your family line.

I don't get the idea of Sin. How can a mortal being really do harm (by not doing Right) to an immortal, all powerful, all knowing being as the God of Abraham is presented?
 

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
As a non-Christian of long standing (left Holy Mother Church in March 1975), my idea of the Afterlife is fairly simple. (a) If one leads a Worthy Life, doing more Good than Harm, one will be reunited with the loved ones of your family line.

(b) I don't get the idea of Sin. How can a mortal being really do harm (by not doing Right) to an immortal, all powerful, all knowing being as the God of Abraham is presented?
I appreciate the comments. Really good and for quite a number of reasons. But to keep this reply short(ish) I'll just address the two things I highlighted from your post. Not "preaching" to you (or anyone) as I certainly respect your (or others') choice; rather, your comments are helping me organize my thoughts for future "use." (So it will be embarrassing if this doesn't come across as either organized or coherent!)

(a) I think this is how many people (religious or not) feel. IF there is an afterlife, then surely being a good person must be what matters. "Good" people go to reward, "bad" people go to perdition.

But the real question about "good" is: "compared to what?" Two thoughts. First, the "horizontal." There have been numerous surveys where people are polled about "who is good?" Generally, a majority of people will say that they themselves are good. When assessing others, a majority will say that "others" may be good, but not (overall) as good as these folks see themselves. So folks are lying about others or deluded about themselves or both. My point is: we might not even know what good is or means....

Okay, now on to the "vertical." God. IF one conceptualizes God as being perfect (frankly, anything less wouldn't be God; maybe a god, but not God), then not one of us can measure up. So the only way to get around this is for God to grade on the curve. And that's the rub: what's the curve? No one knows and anyone who says they do is lying. Anyway, back to the curve. Since we really don't know what the cut-off is can you imagine a person who goes through life thinking they've lived a good life and finding out at the ticket counter that they're one good deed short of "heaven."

Christianity avoids this issue by making "good/bad" "irrelevant." As I wrote in the OP, the issue is being forgiven/accepting that forgiveness (i.e., "believing loyalty") and then letting God do His thing. C.S. Lewis made the point (I think it was in Mere Christianity) that God isn't interested (as a primary goal) in making us happy/helping us to be happy. Rather, He's interested in perfecting us (what all that talk in the Bible about sanctification is about). For the Christian "good" comes into play as the response to His grace and not as a metric of merit. Yes, "good" and "bad" are important, but not as a determining factor regarding "salvation." God will take both the "good" and the "bad" and promises us that He will do a good work in us if we let Him.

(b) Speaking about "bad," a thought or two on "sin." Not a dig, but I think your comment gets it exactly backwards. God isn't "harmed" by sin. We are. Back to Lewis. Lewis (again, I think it was in Mere Christianity) made the point that every action/deed we make is either one step toward God or one step away. Lewis added (backed up by the Bible) that there comes a point where we become either irrevocably good (which Lewis meant as "on God's side") or bad (again, which Lewis meant as "opposed to God"). "Good" people want God in their lives; "bad" people don't. While I'm being a bit superficial/simplistic here, this is the way the Bible speaks to good/bad and good people/bad people.

So sin is more about us drifting further and further away from what God wants. God doesn't want "it" because He's some tin pot dictator; rather, He wants it because He knows what's best for us and as a result this is what He tells us (i.e., wants). Yup, God will respect our choices, but He would prefer we choose "for Him." What parent wouldn't (btw, this is one of the main points of the "parable of the prodigal son").

One last thought on "sin" at this point. The Levitical sacrifice system (found, of course, in the Book of Leviticus) is generally preached as a system of offerings "by us" to remediate the effects of sin "on us." That is patently false, however. The Levitical system was about highlighting the difference between us imperfect beings (post-Fall, etc.) and a perfect God. Where God "lives" (in this case, the tabernacle/Temple) is sacred space and the sacrifices were done to preserve sacred space. What's really interesting (and contrary to how Leviticus is usually preached/taught) is that the blood from the sacrifices was (almost) never put on the people; it was put on the tabernacle/Temple. It's not that the tabernacle/Temple needed it per se, it served as a poignant reminder about the otherness of God and the imperfection of mankind. In other words, a teaching point. (This idea of "blood on the temple" seems strange to us, but would not have been to the initial audience, the Israelites.)

Again, thanks for the reply. It gave me the opportunity to put some random thoughts to "paper" and, hopefully, in not too random a manner! If you've found anything of value in this particular musing, great. If not, that's okay, too! And hopefully none of this was too preachy (or preachy, at all!).

All offered FWIW.

Cheers.

--- End of line (MCP)
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
But the real question about "good" is: "compared to what?"

It today's situational ethics society .......

Well I haven't murdered anyone ..... but I lie about Climate Change all day long and ya have to Punch a Nazi

[sorry dude just taking the piss :lmao: ]



Lewis (again, I think it was in Mere Christianity) made the point that every action/deed we make is either one step toward God or one step away.

I'd like to add for a time there is a ' conviction of the spirit ' as well ..... for a time, it eventually goes away the deeper and deeper one goes down the rabbit hole
 
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