rraley for you - others welcome

[2ndAmendment]

The Bible and the death penalty, war, murder, church tradition and the like

I know this can be argumentative, and it is not my intention to get into an argument. Since this involves belief, you can either accept the scripture or not. That is between you and God just as it is between me and God.

To start, do not base your belief on church tradition. This flies in the face of Catholicism that teaches the tradition is to be revered as much as scripture. Jesus said

Matthew 15:6
6So for the sake of your tradition (the rules handed down by your forefathers), you have set aside the Word of God [depriving it of force and authority and making it of no effect].

Also praying the rosary is not scriptural.

Matthew 6:5-8
5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to (E)stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

There are lots of church traditions that are taught, but are not founded in scripture.
Some other things that have been added by the Catholic church over the years are;
1) The belief that the nature of the bread changed at the Mass was not added until 1215.
2) Purgatory was declared in 1274.
3) The Immaculate Conception was declared in 1854.
4) Papal Infallibility in 1870
5) The Assumption of Mary in 1950
6) The Declaration on Non-Christian Religion in 1965.

Believe the Bible. Whether the last days are million years from now or only a few years off, they are getting closer. We were warned that in the last days, people would turn from believing scripture.

2 Timothy 4:2-4
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 3:3-13
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Many Christians hold that the Exodus 20:13 says "You shall not kill." but the proper translation is "You shall not murder." There is a significant difference between murder and killing. It goes to intent. War is not murder. Carrying out the death sentence is not murder.

Many of the penalties in the Old Testament had death as the consequence. If you murder, you were put to death. It you commited adultery, the penalty was death. Some Christians say that we no longer live under the Old Testament. Not quite true if you believe Jesus.

Matthew 5:17-18
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law and the Prophets are the Old Testament.
In Romans we find the penalty for sin.

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Certainly murder, rape, and the like are sin. According to this, the consequence of sin is death. Now, as Christians, we believe in the forgiveness of sins through acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord, but even if our sins are forgiven in God's kingdom, we may still have to pay the consequences in this life. One of the thieves on the cross next to Jesus was forgiven and went to paradise with Jesus, but he still died for his crime.

I hope this makes sense to you. If not, pray about it. Like I said, I will not argue this. All I can do is present what the scripture says.

 

[hamsterfang]

So how do you look at "turn the other cheek"? There are too many contradictions. The scripture says many different things. It is up to the individual to interpret it. By the way, the definition of killing and murder are the same thing. If I kill someone in America thinking it will do society well, my intentions may have been good, but I am still a murderer and should be held responsible for my actions. If you murder and murderer, you are the murderer's murderer. Taking a human life is always murder, regardless of why you're taking it.

I think it is comical how you say "If you believe in Jesus...". Isn't he the one who also said to let he who is without sin to cast the first stone? If you're murdering a murderer, you're basically saying "I am so perfect that I reserve the same right that God has to take your life". Let it be known that I'm not saying that people who are a threat to society shouldn't be locked up, but taking another human's life is murder, no matter how you look at it (seemingly justified or not!) The fact that capitol punishment is subject to error makes the entire thing ten times worse.

So, if someone accidentaly kills an innocent person thinking that they are a murderer are they a murderer? Hmm.

 

[willie]

rraley for you -
Why is this directed at rraley?

 

[rraley]

Scripture is great, but what is just as important, is how it is manifested to us. That is where the Catholic Church gets its traditions and that is why I am such a strong believer in them...anyways...continuing on...

Getting out my Bible...
John 8:7 "When they kept on questioning him, he straigthened up and said to them, 'If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Matthew 7:8 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Deuteronomy 1:17 "Do no show partiality in judgement; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgement belongs to God."
Isaiah 66:8 "For with fire and with his sword, the Lord will execute judgement upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord."
Jeremiah 10: 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Now these are just a handful of the Bible quotes that I can point to that suggest that it is not Man's duty to take life away from Man. We should not "direct his steps" by killing him, we should allow the Lord to "execute judgement." And furthermore, before we take a step out to condemn a man to death, let us remember that our Lord and savior died because of the death penalty. Let God make his judgement in terms of life and death; let us decide whether to put a man in jail.

As for Romans 6:23...I see that it states that the penalty for sin is death....well why should you or I be endowned with the ability to determine what is sin and which sin should be declared worthy of death (should someone be killed for cursing or missing the Sabbath or adultery)? Notice, Romans does not state who is to be the judge...but if we are to look at the majority of the rest of the Bible, it is apparent that God is judge.

 

[rraley]

rraley for you -
Why is this directed at rraley?

2A challenged my position against the death penalty in the politics thread. My opposition is based on religious beliefs and 2A wants to discuss why I shouldn't feel that way.

 

[willie]

2A challenged my position against the death penalty in the politics thread. My opposition is based on religious beliefs and 2A wants to discuss why I shouldn't feel that way.

I was just curious, you don't seem like any bigger sinner than the rest of us....with a few exceptions, of course.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I was just curious, you don't seem like any bigger sinner than the rest of us....with a few exceptions, of course.

Amen. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And I yell a hearty Amen. Thank God that Christians are no longer under judgment.

Actually, rraley, it is fine with me it you do not believe in capitol punishment. I'm am just pointing out that scripture is not the place that belief is found.

 

[2ndAmendment]

So how do you look at "turn the other cheek"? There are too many contradictions. ... By the way, the definition of killing and murder are the same thing. Isn't he the one who also said to let he who is without sin to cast the first stone?

Turning the other cheek is directed at individuals, not the government. There are no contradictions in the Bible when read in context. Murder is not the same thing as killing. The words are different in the Hebrew/Aramaic and carry different connotations. Yes, Jesus said that, but again, He was speaking to individuals. He also said "Give to Caesar what is Ceasar's." "Caesar" is the government. Jesus recognized the authority of the government.

John 8:7 "When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Matthew 7:8 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Deuteronomy 1:17 "Do no show partiality in judgment; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God."
Isaiah 66:8 "For with fire and with his sword, the Lord will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord."
Jeremiah 10: 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Again, these are directed at individuals and how we, as individuals, should act. They do not direct the government nor do they alleviate an individuals duty to obey the law of the government or be subject to the government's punishments with the exception of when man's law negates God's word or law.

 

[Makavide]

Catholic Doctrine allows for the death penalty

2A challenged my position against the death penalty in the politics thread. My opposition is based on religious beliefs and 2A wants to discuss why I shouldn't feel that way.

One of the big misconceptions about the Cathlic Church is that it is totally against the death penatly. In actuallity, according to the CCD 2267 the death penalty may be used - as a last resort.

 

[hamsterfang]

Funny. So you're saying the government is not subject to the same rules that individuals are? It's okay for the government to kill? This is the same logic used in the Middle East. You say Jesus recognizes authority, but this does not mean they have the same power as God. Dangerous thinking to say that the government should not be subject to the same rules that individuals are.

By the way, when that one person is giving someone a nice dose of the lethal injection, they may work for the government, but as an individual they're still taking a human life. This isn't even a completely religious debate. All punishments should be, in some way, reversible. You can't reverse killing an innocent person. When we can bring back people from the dead, maybe I'll support murdering people. Either that or when the system is 100% correct. Not 99.9%, 100%. Ah, yes- that will never be.

Scott Peterson is a great example of why we shouldn't have the death penalty in America. We think he killed his wife, but the jury had to debate for hours before they could even say he was guilty and then he was given the death penalty! That's ludicrous.


By the way...

Main Entry: kill
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: destroy
Synonyms: annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, blow away, bump off, butcher, chill, cream, croak, crucify, dispatch, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish off, garrote, get, guillotine, hang, hit, ice, immolate, knock off, liquidate, lynch, massacre, murder, neutralize, obliterate, off, poison, polish off, put away, rub out, sacrifice, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, take, waste, winterkill, wipe out, zap

Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2005 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Funny. So you're saying the government is not subject to the same rules that individuals are? It's okay for the government to kill? This is the same logic used in the Middle East. You say Jesus recognizes authority, but this does not mean they have the same power as God. Dangerous thinking to say that the government should not be subject to the same rules that individuals are.

By the way, when that one person is giving someone a nice dose of the lethal injection, they may work for the government, but as an individual they're still taking a human life. This isn't even a completely religious debate. All punishments should be, in some way, reversible. You can't reverse killing an innocent person. When we can bring back people from the dead, maybe I'll support murdering people. Either that or when the system is 100% correct. Not 99.9%, 100%. Ah, yes- that will never be.

Scott Peterson is a great example of why we shouldn't have the death penalty in America. We think he killed his wife, but the jury had to debate for hours before they could even say he was guilty and then he was given the death penalty! That's ludicrous.


By the way...

Main Entry: kill
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: destroy
Synonyms: annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, blow away, bump off, butcher, chill, cream, croak, crucify, dispatch, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish off, garrote, get, guillotine, hang, hit, ice, immolate, knock off, liquidate, lynch, massacre, murder, neutralize, obliterate, off, poison, polish off, put away, rub out, sacrifice, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, take, waste, winterkill, wipe out, zap

Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2005 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Your logic escapes me. A government is not an individual. Governments have different roles in life than individuals do. If you don't see that, then there is no common ground for any discussion.

The Old Testament is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, not English. The words for kill and murder are different and have different connotations.

Believe as you will. Go your own way.

With the furor of activity in here, I suspect that there are those on SOMD exercising their MPDs for a bit of fun. Not interested.

 

[hamsterfang]

Your logic escapes me. A government is not an individual. Governments have different roles in life than individuals do. If you don't see that, then there is no common ground for any discussion.

The Old Testament is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, not English. The words for kill and murder are different and have different connotations.

Believe as you will. Go your own way.

With the furor of activity in here, I suspect that there are those on SOMD exercising their MPDs for a bit of fun. Not interested.

What is so hard to understand? I very well know that the government is not an individual. I'm not an idiot. The government, however, is made up of large groups of individuals. These groups of individuals which govern our country have no more of a right to murder a human being than we do. The government is not God, nor is it a “thing”. What I'm saying is if the government has in some way violated you, it makes it no different than if I violated you in some way. Just because they're the government doesn't mean that they can throw down any kind of punishment they want for any type of crime, and I feel death is an inappropriate punishment for ANY type of crime committed when you have other options (life in prison). Along time ago, it was not always feasible to give a person life in prison. It is today. I feel that capitol punishment is even more inappropriate since it is well known to be error prone.

For the kill/murder debate, the only difference between the two in the Bible would be that to murder would be with evil intent and to kill would to be with good intent (punishment). That's your different connotation- all based on intention. Overall, they're the same thing- taking a life is taking a life. When you support the "killing" of an innocent person, you're helping take a life. Personally, I don't really give a damn what the "intention" is. So, when you decide to support taking a person's life with your good intentions thinking that they're receiving their punishment from the all knowing government and they turn out to be innocent, good for you. Let the blood cover your hands- you are the murderer now.

http://www.deathpenaltyreligious.org/action/ongoing/choosinglife.html.

 

[2ndAmendment]

What is so hard to understand? ....

I understand you. I don't agree. I don't think the scriptures agree. I will not convince you. You will not convice me. No need for further dicussion.