rraley/Gude Deabtes Round 2: Provide for the Common Defense

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bill Clinton did virtually nothing (that didn't invlove getting his pee pee played with by the help) after the first WTC attack and the bombing of the Kobar Towers (US military barracks) in Suadi and both embassy bombings in Africa (embassies which are, btw, US soil) then the USS Cole attack and stood by for 8 years of Hussein violating UN resolution after resolution, attacking US warplanes and violating various and sundry argeements he had with us to cease hostilities in 1991.

The Gulf War never ended because Iraq did not meet the terms and conditions of surrender.

In the interim, Osama Bin Laden declared war on us and started building a hostile network of agents on US soil.

Clinton reduced the number of US service men and women by 36% by 1999.

Before going on (and on) I'm curious if we even have any substantial disagreements over President Bushs handling of his primary job?
 

rraley

New Member
While I disagree with your criticisms of President Clinton, I do not feel that these disagreements are pertinent to our debates. Debates are about the future and not the past and I, for one, don't want to defend a president whose been out of office for almost four years.

Before going on (and on) I'm curious if we even have any substantial disagreements over President Bushs handling of his primary job

I don't think that we really do. The only real disagreement with President Bush that I have concerning the War on Terror is his lack of building broader international support and his sometimes unstately speeches that concern the world (such as saying "you are either with us or against us" or "they tried to kill my dad"). Speeches from the president of the United States are seen worldwide by a broad cross-section of people and this president doesn't seem to understand that fully (after all, he referred to our war in Iraq as a "crusade." That went over well with Arabs). Besides this, I support the United States mission in Iraq and I believe that we cannot pull out there until the job is completely finished. I would, however, feel more comfortable with our mission if our coalition was growing and not dwindling.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
OK Double R, back to work here...

...since we last spoke, I've been to two bastions; one, NYC and the convention and the protestors and the other, a long weekend at Deep Creek Lake.

A greater contrast may not be possible.

I think, correct me if I'm wrong, we simply disagree about economics, especially taxes? So, if we were pols, we'd battle it out to gain ballot box support.

To get back to the issue of leadership, you said:

lack of building broader international support and his sometimes unstately speeches that concern the world

I counter that by asking if you are aware of WHY Germany and ESPECIALLY France and many in the UN were against us doing anything about Saddam?
 

rraley

New Member
Larry Gude said:
I counter that by asking if you are aware of WHY Germany and ESPECIALLY France and many in the UN were against us doing anything about Saddam?

They had contracts with the Saddam Hussein government I do believe. This was a factor in them being unable to join the "coalition" prior to the invasion, but now that the Hussein government is gone, they still have refused to aid in the rebuilding because of how much President Bush burned them and how little he valued their opinion.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Isn't that interesting...

They had contracts with the Saddam Hussein government I do believe

Good start but let's not forget the UN oil kickback investigation and that it points at key UN people. This is called corruption.

Let's not forget UN resolution after resolution limp wristedly demanding compliance by Iraq while Germany and France chose to treat economic opportunities as though they existed in a vaccuum.

This was a factor in them being unable to join the "coalition"

Unable? UNABLE??? France and Germany CHOSE limited self interest over meeting UN mandates spear headed by the US. The fact is that France, Germany and Russia were tooling along fine and dandy making money while pretending all was peachy in Iraq.

Somehow I think if we switched the word 'France' with Halliburton you'd suddenly understand and for the wrong reasons to boot.

John Kerry is suggesting nothing less than subordinating US foreign policy and defense policy (one in the same actually) to foreign nations.

I'm sorry. We're 'unable' to do so.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
You both bring up good points. I agree that we need to stop yelling about Clinton, but it is important to point out some vital differences between the policies of Clinton and Bush as they apply to future Presidents. Clinton did respond to terror attacks. His mistake was that he always responded in kind to minimize collateral damage. This was his mistake (and Bush Sr. did the same thing BTW.) By only attacking the enemy as hard as he attacks you, you make him look to be your equal in military power. Had Clinton completely squashed Al Quaeda and Bin Ladin, yes... it would have been seen as "overkill", but the message would have been sent, and received, by other terrorists that you mess with the US - you lose big. Instead, Bin Ladin was able to gain support and credibility because he could make the case that the US was intimidated by him - why else was he still alive? And that's a case that's an easy sell in the Middle East even if it's not true.

As for building international support - forget about it. It's a fool's errand. Back during the Cuban missile crisis, Canada was very reluctant to get involved and it took a lot of arm bending from Kennedy to get them to alert their forces. The US learned from this, and this is why to this day every Canadian officer in US defense establishments has a mirror US officer with him. We learned then that ultimately, only the US has the best interests of the US in mind. All of the countries that were against the war in Iraq, France, Germany, Russia, etc., all had vital economic interests in Iraq. They were the ones who were willing to look the other way in order to support their economies... talk about blood for oil! You cannot expect these countries to cut their economic throats in order to protect or support the US in any effort. Foreign countries, even England, will always be fair weather friends at best - never forget that.

The defense of the United States rests with the US government, not any foreign government. The best interests of the US are served by the US government and not any foreign governments. To insist on foreign support during conflicts with foreign enemies is a bad policy as someone is always making money off of the bad guys... that's how they usually stay in power.
 

rraley

New Member
Bruzilla said:
Clinton did respond to terror attacks. His mistake was that he always responded in kind to minimize collateral damage. This was his mistake (and Bush Sr. did the same thing BTW.) By only attacking the enemy as hard as he attacks you, you make him look to be your equal in military power. Had Clinton completely squashed Al Quaeda and Bin Ladin, yes... it would have been seen as "overkill", but the message would have been sent, and received, by other terrorists that you mess with the US - you lose big. Instead, Bin Ladin was able to gain support and credibility because he could make the case that the US was intimidated by him - why else was he still alive? And that's a case that's an easy sell in the Middle East even if it's not true.

Hindsight is always 20/20, I must remind you. Recall the lack of WMD discovery in Iraq; just because we didn't find them, doesn't mean that Saddam Hussein's removal was bad and that we should not have acted.

Onto international coalitions and multilateralism...

While a prewar coalition that included Russia, France, and Germany may have been very difficult to obtain, I believe that President Bush failed to sufficiently reach out to them and he acted with contempt for the United Nations. Yes, conservatives see the UN as some terrible, awful circumventing force of the Pentagon and American defense, but I have never seen anything in the past to show this. The UN was created by the United States, its Universal Declarations of Human Rights was almost entirely composed by the United States based on American/democratic principles, and it was the reason that our nation was allowed to execute a "police action" against North Korean communists. Did the UN fail to meet the United States halfway? Yes, but we failed to meet them halfway as well. There is a process for weapons inspections that the UN must follow, but the Bush Administration did not desire to allow that to occur. We refused to provide any sort of oversight or minimal shared power to the UN, and quite frankly, the message that Colin Powell and President Bush provided to the UN was below par. The UN, especially those three nations, meanwhile, should have understood that terrorism is spurned by corrupt, abusive Middle Eastern regimes that isolate themselves from the world community such as Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq. They should have realized that economic sanctions caused 60,000 deaths a year in Iraq, which only added even more to the devastation of the Hussein regime. Sadly, I think that had these points been made, the European nations would have been more receptive to the message of the Bush Administration.

The UN wanted inspections to continue and the reason that the Bush Administration was so adamantly opposed to the idea still escapes me. Inspections, so long as they were done to the demands of the UN and to their protocol, would have either proven Hussein's WMD program and possession (unlikely; we can't even find WMD with him out of power) or it would have caused Hussein to remove inspectors, which would have turned the UN against him strongly. Some neoconservatives will say how this wouldn't matter because Hussein's government has been violating UN resolutions for a decade and the UN still refused to act, but I do not believe that to be the case in this instance. The UN had already passed a strongly worded and critical indictment of the Hussein government and its alleged possession of WMD; the refusal of Hussein to open up fully to inspections would have been the icing on the cake.

This all begs the question, "why is international support so important?" That is definitely a fair question; the average person does not understand the legitimacy of an international organization that has no governing power over our nation. First of all, I will say that I absolutely agree with President Bush and Senator Kerry (both who have stated this position) that the security of the United States should never be vetoed by the UN. That is just common sense. Whenever there is a war that is absolutely necessary for the safety of the American people, the only persons who should be making the decisions are American leaders, not Koffi Anan. This is not the case in terms of Iraq. The war in Iraq, while vital to the long-term security of our nation, was not as necessary as some conservatives painted it to be. Saddam Hussein's government had never directly attacked the United States and he had absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. What we were fighting against in Iraq was a "possible" threat to us. We were "preempting" Saddam Hussein, which is something that have never been done before in the history of the UN. We were not fighting the "terrorists" of 9/11, but an abusive, corrupt Middle Eastern regime that helps to spurn "terrorism." While it is a policy that I agree with, it is one that radically deviates from all prior precedent and it is one which the world had not previously been subjected. A unilateral preemptive strike against Iraq by the United States could be construed by some nations, especially India and Pakistan, as the green light for their own preemptive strikes, which is something that we as Americans and citizens of the world should refuse to support.

Where multilateralism would be the most effective, however, is in the rebuilding of Iraq. The United States, which carries one of the most negative connotations in the Middle East, has a lack of legitimacy in Iraq. The transitional government that was established does not have the popular backing of the people because it is merely viewed as the puppet of "American imperialism." This could be a major reason that 95% of Iraqis see Americans as "occupiers" and not "liberators." Shah al-Sistani, the leading Shiite cleric in Iraq who helped to broker the peace with al-Sadr and who commands significant public support, refuses to meet with American leaders in the nation, but will only meet with UN envoys. Dividing the authority to grant contracts among nations (rather than the US doing it all alone) will help to create more goodwill among nations. You see, multilateralism is the best way to go in this rebuilding; it will help the Iraqi government to be more effective and will provide the entire Iraqi operation with more legitimacy.

I understand the argument concerning "fair weather" allies when it comes to the prewar scenario that included French contracts with Saddam Hussein, but that argument does not explain why these nations, that have already lost their business partner, would refuse to join the effort either through the UN or NATO. It would seem that had these nations solely been concerned with their own economic well-being, they would be tripping all over themselves to help in the rebuilding so that new business ties can be established. At least that is what I would do if my motivation was pure economics. Heck, using this logic, we could decide that the only reason for our action in Iraq was to secure more oil reserves...I think that you and me agree that that is not the case.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Double R...

...you have GOT to keep your posts shorter AND add more paragraph breaks.

We are debating, not filibustering.

doesn't mean that Saddam Hussein's removal was bad and that we should not have acted.

Tell that to your party. And tell that to odd numbered day John Kerry. The even numbered day John Kerry already get's it.


Yes, but we failed to meet them halfway as well.

That is patently absurd and at the core of WHY I think the UN is a joke. We, along with 14 some odd UN resolutions that demanded Iraq follow the rules NOW or else over the last 12 years and moving along with the endless cycle of inspectors being let in and kicked out makes clear we went way farther than 1/2 way.

You did not address the oil corruption in the UN. You gave little attention to Frances economic benfits vis a vis Iraq. We were in the right, they were in the wrong and we waited for 12 damn years.

You are simply and totally wrong about the inspectors. At some point, it is no longer acceptable to keep saying 'this time we mean business'. Blix and the UN made themselves irrelevent, not us. He, Blix, cannot speak for Iraq and say things are this or that when Iraq will not let him do his job.

caused 60,000 deaths a year in Iraq

Wrong. I don't fault France for that; only their cynicism. Saddam Hussein is soley responsible here.

As for the rest of your post, it becomes a long winded speech about patience.

Fine.

For how long? Is the ONLY thing that matters is that we go on forever? Until when? Until he DID have a nuke? Until he started another war?

Bill Clinton, John Kerry, W and everybody else said the SAME THING: Hussien would continue to subvert the process and would have to be dealt with
sooner or later.

When a matter reaches consensus of sooner or later, by all sides, sooner is always better.

John Kerry is being totally disingenuous about Iraq.

Iraq would be ZERO of a campaign issue if the Democratic party stood as one and said "Thank God he, Saddam, is taken care of. Now let's act and get the Iraqi people up to speed and move forward". Do it instead of say it.

But no.
 
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