Scary Video on Immigration - Eye Opener

[AK-74me]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=numbersusa&hl=en

Every American should take 15 mins. and watch this video if they are concerned at all about the future of our country.

 

[chernmax]

Wow, those are some frightening numbers...

 

[Vince]

That is scary and I believe that Congress is well aware of the numbers and wants to to NOTHING about it.

 

[Toxick]

That is scary and I believe that Congress is well aware of the numbers and wants to to NOTHING about it.

Well, the fact of the matter is that both Republicans and Democrats cater to businesses over the citizens. One party doesn't bother hiding this fact, and the other flat out denies it and decries the other for it, but it's true for both.


And they BOTH know that the answer to ending this stream of illegal immigration is to go after the companies that hire them, either through fines, or flat out closing them down.

And they both know that if they stem the tide some other way, those companies will be angry that their endless supply of cheap labor disappears.



Neither side is willing to do either of these things, and once again it is the citizens who are screwed.

 

[Vince]

How about doubling the taxes of these companies that hire illegal immigrants and see if it doesn't put a dent in their pocket. Maybe then it will be cheaper for them not to hire illegals.

 

[Warron]

And they BOTH know that the answer to ending this stream of illegal immigration is to go after the companies that hire them, either through fines, or flat out closing them down.

And they both know that if they stem the tide some other way, those companies will be angry that their endless supply of cheap labor disappears.

The biggest problem congress has with going after these companies isn't that the companies will be angry, but that their customer's will be angry. The cheap labor illegals provide is similar to the cheap labor gotten from using slaves in the 17 and 1800's. Its helping to prop up our economy and keep the cost for various good and services low.

Maybe those companies would be able to find legal workers to replace the illegals they use now. But you can pretty much guarentee that the legal workers will demand higher wages and that cost will be passed on to the customer. Considering the number of illegal workers that would have to be replaced, your talking about a fairly wide range of goods and services that will suddenly jump up in price.

This is the hole we've dug for ourselves by allowing it to get this far. We can either accept the illegals and the drain on our social services and the impact of them sending a large amount of their income back to their home countries or we can accept the impact on our economy from when all these companies are forced to use more expensive labor or go out of business entirely.

 

[itsbob]

i thought the idea behind NAFTA was to start to turn the tide in at least local immigration.. Mexico, Central America and Canada. With the thought if we had free trade the economy in these other countries would improve, better jobs in Tijuana, and less people wanting to migrate.

 

[Larry Gude]

That is missing the entire point...

How about doubling the taxes of these companies that hire illegal immigrants and see if it doesn't put a dent in their pocket. Maybe then it will be cheaper for them not to hire illegals.

...did you watch the whole video? This is about ONE thing; mass immigration numbers per year. That's it. Not taxes. Not fines. Not finger pointing and playing 'get the man'.

Business is a given; it will try to make money. It will fight and try to survive market forces. Impose an expense on it and it will react by cutting other expenses, increase productivity and increase prices, whatever combination of those three that works. Taxes take from business. It is an expense which means it is a negative and will be attacked as such, including wages, numbers of employees, etc..

Immigration numbers are the beginning and ending of this argument. If business has less people to work with, it will raise salaries, it will raise productivity. A limited supply of something; labor or materials, increase their value.

Get those two highlighted concepts in your head and never forget them and you will always be served by business, not threatened by it.

Pointing the finger at business is the ultimate in passing the buck. It is easy. It is painless, at first. And it is the seed of unintended consequences.

The very FIRST thing that needs to happen is physical control of the border and that means manpower. Not fences. Not cameras. Manpower. Then, we demand congress set annual numbers and stick to them. Over time, all the various competing pressures will equalize in a steady sustainable fashion.

Attacking business will send shockwaves through the economy; depressed wages, layoffs, increased prices. Business is easy to work with. Think supply and demand, not expense when you think of social policy.

And therein lies the real problem; The GOP pisses on it's conservative base on goes Rockefeller Republican; plentiful, cheap labor.

Democrats go, as they always do, the way of least common denominator; the more poor, uneducated people who 'need' all manner of things the better

 

[Larry Gude]

Great piece...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=numbersusa&hl=en

Every American should take 15 mins. and watch this video if they are concerned at all about the future of our country.

...btw.

We gotta get on it. Write your congressman;


CONTROL THE BORDERS. CONTROL IMMIGRATION. SET AN ANNUAL NUMBER AND STICK TO IT.

 

[Toxick]

The biggest problem congress has with going after these companies isn't that the companies will be angry, but that their customer's will be angry.

Well when you get down to that argument, these angry customers are the same people who are angry about illegal immigration.

So they're going to be angry either way.

But rising prices would cause them to be angry for a while, in which case consumers will either adapt or stop buying. Allowing illegal immigration to continue unabated is a self-perpetuating machine that will sustain anger over the long haul.

Take your pick.

The cheap labor illegals provide is similar to the cheap labor gotten from using slaves in the 17 and 1800's. Its helping to prop up our economy and keep the cost for various good and services low.

I'd be interested in two things:

1) How much money are these companies really "saving" by hiring illegal aliens.
2) Could they make up that money by manufacturing and selling methamphetamines or cocaine? I know that's illegal - but if they're going to ignore the laws anyway...

Maybe those companies would be able to find legal workers to replace the illegals they use now. But you can pretty much guarentee that the legal workers will demand higher wages and that cost will be passed on to the customer.

It's supply and demand like everything else. It'll balance out naturally.

This is the hole we've dug for ourselves by allowing it to get this far. We can either accept the illegals and the drain on our social services and the impact of them sending a large amount of their income back to their home countries or we can accept the impact on our economy from when all these companies are forced to use more expensive labor or go out of business entirely.

I would rather err on the side of abiding established laws.


Or changing the laws. I'm not even against amnesty for WORKING immigrants. I would, however, have a HUGE problem with immigrants foisting themselves on our welfare system.

I don't mind them being here... but I don't want to flip the bill.

 

[Toxick]

Pointing the finger at business is the ultimate in passing the buck. It is easy. It is painless, at first. And it is the seed of unintended consequences.

It's not passing the buck.. it's duly assigning (at least some of) the blame.

If businesses would not hire undocumented workers - AN ILLEGAL PRACTICE, it should be noted - then this would not be a problem.


Would you hold a business accountable if it were to start manufacturing meth and crack to offset some of the expenses that would be incurred by firing all their illegals?

I mean, after all, the purpose of a business is to make money.

 

[Larry Gude]

So...

It's not passing the buck.. it's duly assigning (at least some of) the blame.

If businesses would not hire undocumented workers - AN ILLEGAL PRACTICE, it should be noted - then this would not be a problem.


Would you hold a business accountable if it were to start manufacturing meth and crack to offset some of the expenses that would be incurred by firing all their illegals?

I mean, after all, the purpose of a business is to make money.

...if you can get gas for $.75 a gallon and have it delivered to your door, you'd still go pay at the station?

You ever buy anything off of ebay and happily not pay sales tax?

How about yard sales? Roadside vendors?

Business is hiring what you call 'undocumented workers' all the time. People with drivers liscense, issued by the state, who are illegal.

If you ran a store, would you sell your goods to illegals? Rent them an apartment? Sell them a car?

This is placing blame where it not only does NOT belong but where it will do the least good. Business = Border patrol? Are you kidding me?

Business by and large follows the rules.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's brilliant...

Would you hold a business accountable if it were to start manufacturing meth and crack to offset some of the expenses that would be incurred by firing all their illegals?

...just brilliant. I can see you have you eye fixed sqaurely on the issue, as you see it. Maybe you ought to watch the video again? I don't recall business being mentioned. I do recall the government, the border people, being mentioned quite often.

Tell you what. Business already collects taxes for the government because people, somehow, think this is a good idea. How about we go ahead and put business in charge of the borders? If the money is there, the job will be done and done well and you still won't have to bother with holding your elected representatives responsible for...social policy.

Anything else business should be responsbile for? Provide your healthcare? Auto insurance? Retirement? Pay for your home? Buy you an Ipod?

I mean, it's already doing some of that. Why not become the defacto government? How about we let business raise the troops required to control the border?

What else? I know! Let's require all business's to have entire departements that spend all their time making sure the documents they're handed are in fact real and legit! Hell, howe about business prints the documents!

The entire concept of punishing legitimate work and punishing offering legitimate jobs is alien to me.

 

[Toxick]

...if you can get gas for $.75 a gallon and have it delivered to your door, you'd still go pay at the station?

This misses the point.

And I would not do this if it were illegal.

You ever buy anything off of ebay and happily not pay sales tax?

This also misses the point.

And no, I never have.
I especially wouldn't do it if it were illegal to do so.

How about yard sales? Roadside vendors?

This also misses the point.

And no. I never have... BTW: Are these things illegal?

Business is hiring what you call 'undocumented workers' all the time.

Yes they do. Illegally so.

People with drivers liscense, issued by the state, who are illegal.

I never said this was OK.

If you ran a store, would you sell your goods to illegals?

If I were required by law to do check for citizenship and deny services to illegals, I would obey the law.

Rent them an apartment? Sell them a car?

If I were required by law to do check for citizenship and deny services to illegals, I would obey the law.

This is placing blame where it not only does NOT belong but where it will do the least good.

Not only have you not convinced me that I'm placing blame in the wrong place, you've reinforced to me that I'm correct in my thinking - and you've been woefully unsuccessful in convincing me that holding businesses accountable for their hiring practices is not the BEST place to start.

Business = Border patrol? Are you kidding me?

Please refresh my memory - I forgot where I said that businesses are responsible for hunting down and detaining/deporting illegal immigrants.

I totally don't remember saying that.

Business by and large follows the rules.

So, I guess maybe we should just ignore those minor little points where they break the law, right.

 

[Toxick]

...just brilliant. I can see you have you eye fixed sqaurely on the issue, as you see it.

As I see it?

I see it as it is. Hiring illegals is illegal.
Manufacturing and distributing narcotics is illegal.

I'm comparing apples to apples. It's not even that big of a stretch.

Maybe you ought to watch the video again? I don't recall business being mentioned. I do recall the government, the border people, being mentioned quite often.

I'm at work, I can't watch the video.

I brought up businesses on my own because I think that's the bulk of the problem.

I agree that government is also the problem because they're doing NOTHING to stop it. If, however, they suddenly decided that they're going to enforce the laws they've passed, I think that going after companies that flout immigration laws is an excellent place to start.

This eliminates the flow of money to illegals, who will subsequently go elsewhere - probably home - for money.

Anything else business should be responsbile for? Provide your healthcare? Auto insurance? Retirement? Pay for your home? Buy you an Ipod?

Now you're just acting like a horse's ass.

The entire concept of punishing legitimate work and punishing offering legitimate jobs is alien to me.

Me too.
I've never suggested otherwise.



Unless you think ILLEGAL PRACTICES are "legitimate".

 

[Larry Gude]

Hear we go again...

...with this whole entire moral equivalancy thing.

I see it as it is. Hiring illegals is illegal. Manufacturing and distributing narcotics is illegal.

I certainly can't argue with that.

I'm comparing apples to apples. It's not even that big of a stretch.

It makes all the difference in the world; If illegal immigration and making meth and jaywalking and tearing the tags off of matteresses are all illegal and are simple facts of left OR right, up OR down, black OR white, if they are all oranges, then, simply, they should all be of equal importance and have the same consequences and solutions.

End of story.

I brought up businesses on my own because I think that's the bulk of the problem.

How can you say that after what you just got done saying? Are you saying that business is more orange than the border patrol? More orange than the criminal at McDonalds who sold that illigal immigrant criminal a hamburger? Bulk of the problem?

I agree that government is also the problem

How can this be? Are they more or less orangey?


At the end of the day, if someone wants meth enough someone else is going to supply it and that's all there is to it. If jobs are going begging enough for people to leave their homes, well. I'm not asking for a control on how much meth per year people can have. I'm simply stating that the ONLY people who can control our borders is the government. The Minutemen dudes can only do so much. They have limited authority and limited power, same as a neighborhood watch group.

Business, by and large, follows the rules such as they are. There aren't thousands of Enrons. Enron broke the law. Business is trying to work with what it has. Give business, all business, the same playing field and they'll work with it.

Control the borders. Decide on annual numbers. Do the job.

And, please, stop comparing illegals who just wanna work and be like you and me some day to real criminals who have zero interest in being you or me.

Also, do watch the vid when you get a chance. The guy gives an excellent presentation and I mean excellent.

Now you're just acting like a horse's ass.

An orange one.

 

[Toxick]

if they are all oranges, then, simply, they should all be of equal importance and have the same consequences and solutions.

I will give you that some crimes are worse than others, and penalties should fit the crimes.

So you fine the businesses who do this, instead of throwing the entire board of directors in effing jail.

Hows that?

But you have to fine them sufficiently to make them STOP BREAKING THE GODDAM LAW.

I'm simply stating that the ONLY people who can control our borders is the government.

But apparently you don't want them to have the power to exercise this control... i.e. going after business that offer succor and money to border-runners.

And, please, stop comparing illegals who just wanna work and be like you and me some day to real criminals who have zero interest in being you or me.

Hey - I said earlier I'm not against amnesty. They want to be here, let them be here. I have nothing against someone who's trying to better themselves. All I ask is that they do it legally, and don't stick me with the bill. And all I ask from business is that they uphold the law of the land.



I don't think any of this is unreasonable.

Also, do watch the vid when you get a chance. The guy gives an excellent presentation and I mean excellent.

I'll check it out later tonight.

 

[Larry Gude]

No!

Hows that?

I am trying to stamd out the impulse to tax business for anything that comes along. ANY and I mean ANY tax on business is, at the end of the day, a tax on all of us because it simply gets passed on to us. That's as simple as it gets.

If business is simply required to hire only people who have specific government issued documents, be it a passport, drivers liscese, green card or a Bazooka Joe Joke, they'll do it. It would be nice of government would lead the way on such a big issue.

Fine and punish blatant flaunters of the rules. Just hold the officers responsible, like we're starting to for accounting chicanery, and we are good to go.

I don't think there is as much out and out rule breaking by business as perhaps you fear. You just can't hold them responsible for setting policy. They DO have an interest in cheap labor. It's up to congress to say and enforce who they can and can't hire. It's up to congress and they work for us.