SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE (Constitution/Thomas Jefferson)

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
The Bill Of Rights was quickly amended to the Constitution in order to protect the rights of citizens because the original Constitution primarily just defined the powers of government. The third Article of the Bill of Rights (which became the first amendment) states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

There is often debate about what exactly what the First Amendment means, however, in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, Thomas Jefferson made clear that the purpose of the First Amendment was to establish a "wall of separation" between Church and State in order to protect individuals' right of conscience:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.


IN YOUR FACE BIBLE THUMPERS!!!!!!!!!!! The last graph was written by Thomas Jefferson himself. So, stop voting for the pope and vote for a real President!!!!!!!!! :peace:

Vote for Kerry/Edwards!!! At least you can understand what he is saying.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Now, do you actually understand what he is saying or did someone else tell you to cut and paste that?

Stop voting for Pope? Kerry is the Catholic, not Bush.
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
"Furthermore, in 1797, in an attempt to establish peaceful relations with Muslims off the Northern Coast of Africa (an attempt that failed and lead to the Barbary Wars) the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified by the Senate. Article 11 of the treaty states:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

This only furthers the truth that we are not founded on religion. Thank you Jesus for delivering us the truth.
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
I guess when I deliver facts you Bushwhackers can't accept the truth. Wowwwww. I'm not surprised.

I find the bible and much of christianity morally offensive and idiotic. I don't understand why people would give up the right to think for themselves in favor of a book that not only contradicts itself so much as to be virtually indecipherable, but is so steeped in superstition and nonsense that it is nothing but a moral sinkhole. The bible as literature is fascinating. The bible as a moral guide is repugnant. The bible legislated is unconstitutional.
 
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Lilly

The Original Lilly
Ummmm . . are you trying to do a comedy routine here?

We were not founded on a religion in the sense that religion is mandatory or forced upon the people. Last time I checked we weren't all converted to the religion of the President as soon as he is sworn in. What we were founded on was the freedom of religious expression or exercise . . and since when is that limited to only those who don't hold political office?
 

ylexot

Super Genius
UrbanPancake said:
can't except the truth.
:killingme I think the word you were trying to use was accept.

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. We all know that the government can't establish religions or prevent anyone from worshiping whatever they want. We also already know that the US is not a theocracy. So what's your point?
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
This country is following the tactics of Nazi Germany, making the people fear that they won't be safe enough with another candidate in office. If you vote because of fear then you are voting for the wrong reason. Look what happened to Germany and if Bush is elected again, I'm not saying it will be another Nazi regime but considering how he's taking away our freedoms, I wouldn't be surprised if it became a modern day version of Nazi Germany.

We're living lies people, why can't you see that? Do your country right and vote for Kerry. Truthfully, I don't believe Kerry can follow through with everything he promises. It's almost impossible. But can we really put up with a man who has had his chance at running this country AND FAILED?

Did you know we have the largest deficit since World War II? Because of an unnecessary war in Iraq? World War II was necessary because the security of the entire world was at stake. IRAQ WAS NOT A THREAT! The only country that they threatened was Israel...doesn't that seem a little fishy considering Israel is sided with the U.S.? Didn't you ever think they wanted to kill two birds with one stone by getting rid of one threat to Israel and overtaking the oil so Haliburton can continue to thrive for Cheney? This administration is disgustingly dishonest to the people and some of you are still incredibly gullible.

I remember watching one of Bush's rallies where he was told by one of his supporters that he's never felt that God was in the White House until now. Well if you take a close look at Bush's sly smirk, laughing inside at the stupidity of the American people, you almost wonder if Bush is the representation of the devil. At least that's what everyone else thinks, outside of America and around the world.
:patriot:
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
ylexot said:
:killingme I think the word you were trying to use was accept.

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. We all know that the government can't establish religions or prevent anyone from worshiping whatever they want. We also already know that the US is not a theocracy. So what's your point?

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not paying too much attention to my own writing to correct my errors.
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
You wacko religious fundamentalists need to leave our government alone!

The separation of church and state ensures that private citizens, when acting in the role of some government official, cannot have any aspect of their private religious beliefs imposed upon everyone else. School teachers cannot promote their religion to other people's children. Local officials cannot require certain religious beliefs on the part of government employees. Government leaders cannot make members of other religions feel like they are unwanted or are second-class citizens by using their position to promote particular religious beliefs - for example, through sectarian prayers or scriptural readings.

This enforces a certain moral self-restraint on government officials, and even to a degree on private citizens - a self-restraint which is necessary for a religiously pluralistic society to survive without descending into religious civil war. It ensures that the government remains the government of all citizens, not the government of one denomination or one religious tradition. It ensures that political divisions not be drawn along religious lines, with Protestants battling Catholics or Christians battling Muslims for "their share" of the public purse.

The separation of church and state is one of the key constitutional liberties which protects the American public from tyranny. It protects all people from the religious tyranny of any one religious group or tradition, and it protects all people from a government intent on tyrannizing some or any religious groups. We need the separation of church and state as much as we need any of the liberties guaranteed in the American Constitution. Nuff said. :patriot:
 

Pete

Repete
UrbanPancake said:
Look what happened to Germany and if Bush is elected again, I'm not saying it will be another Nazi regime but considering how he's taking away our freedoms, I wouldn't be surprised if it became a modern day version of Nazi Germany.
Name 1 solitary freedom you do not have right now that you had 4 years ago or forever shut your pie hole.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Since you like Jefferson...
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283
 

ylexot

Super Genius
UrbanPancake said:
The separation of church and state ensures that private citizens, when acting in the role of some government official, cannot have any aspect of their private religious beliefs imposed upon everyone else. School teachers cannot promote their religion to other people's children. Local officials cannot require certain religious beliefs on the part of government employees. Government leaders cannot make members of other religions feel like they are unwanted or are second-class citizens by using their position to promote particular religious beliefs - for example, through sectarian prayers or scriptural readings.
When did any of that happen?
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
ylexot said:
Since you like Jefferson...
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

I do like Jefferson. But he still supports the separation of church and state. That's why we have the liberty to worship and maintain good government. I'm glad you support my stance on this issue.
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
ylexot said:
When did any of that happen?

Lets see. There are courts that display the ten commandments on government property. You have religius activists who yearn for public school prayer, and Bush supports all of this just so he can buy the crazy votes.
 
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Lilly

The Original Lilly
UrbanPancake said:
Look what happened to Germany and if Bush is elected again. . . I wouldn't be surprised if it became a modern day version of Nazi Germany.

Well if you take a close look at Bush's sly smirk, laughing inside at the stupidity of the American people, you almost wonder if Bush is the representation of the devil.

Oh my god Pancake, you are right . . I should vote for Kerry because I am afraid that Bush is the demonic reincarnation of Hitler!!

UrbanPancake said:
If you vote because of fear then you are voting for the wrong reason.

Oh, wait, I am not supposed to vote out of fear . . . good thing I already cast my ballot for Bush . . .
 
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