Social Security and the federal debt

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
So social security is payed for by FICA taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into a social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but paying out retirement checks right? Why then is it even shown as part of the debt or a line item for govt expenditure. Why isn’t SS and the lockbox set aside since they are supposed to be a wash…
As you think of new and novel ways of calling me an idiot think about this also, Medicaid is payed for by FICA tax taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into the same social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but Medicaid?
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
So social security is payed for by FICA taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into a social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but paying out retirement checks right? Why then is it even shown as part of the debt or a line item for govt expenditure. Why isn’t SS and the lockbox set aside since they are supposed to be a wash…
As you think of new and novel ways of calling me an idiot think about this also, Medicaid is payed for by FICA tax taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into the same social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but Medicaid?
There was never a lockbox, I don't think that ever happened although Al Gore talked about it.

Medicare, Medicaid, and SS have always gone into the general fund.

The good news is most government debt is written against another part of the government. My uncle first worked for the IRS and then transferred to the Bureau of Public Debt, the things he told me were a bit unbelievable.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
The only distinction with Medicare and SS tax receipts is accounting. It all goes in a pile, gets spent and a record is kept of what is owed for SS and Medicare. As the Republicans say, an "IOU" - which the Democrats dismiss. Because it's neither officially, but it IS, essentially, because we manage to PAY them every year while running a deficit overall.

It's kind of like having your paycheck direct deposited into savings and checking - with overdrafts automatically drawn from savings. Every month you pay the bills, but it's always more than the amount in checking, so the overdrafts kick in. You tell yourself you're not taking from savings, because you don't move the money, but it happens anyway.

What the Republicans have observed for DECADES is - see, FICA works like this - 7.65% of your income is taken out - and your employer ALSO pays 7.65% - for a total of 15.3%. TRY and imagine HOW MUCH retirement savings you would have, if SS worked like you THOUGHT it worked - if that 15.3% didn't go into a big slush pile but into an investment plan FOR YOU.

I'll tell you what would happen - you'd be freaking rich by retirement. Uncle Sam takes essentially 15.3% of your income, spends most of it, and promises to give you a fraction of it 50 years later. And NOTHING if you die first. Sucks, doesn't it? If it was YOUR money, you could at least leave it to your children.

What the GOP has proposed - is to gradually or partially invest those dollars. The Dems have pointed to the worst collapses in the market is an indicator that the market is not a safe place. Well neither is Uncle Sam. At least the market, over long periods of time, makes money. Actually, the stock market has been the most profitable place for your money over any 30 year stretch in history. It loses big some years, gains others, but ALWAYS outstrips the government in payment.
 

3CATSAILOR

Well-Known Member
So social security is payed for by FICA taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into a social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but paying out retirement checks right? Why then is it even shown as part of the debt or a line item for govt expenditure. Why isn’t SS and the lockbox set aside since they are supposed to be a wash…
As you think of new and novel ways of calling me an idiot think about this also, Medicaid is payed for by FICA tax taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into the same social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but Medicaid?
Meanwhile, the idiots in Washington have likely raided it. It has probably been gone for a long time. I am told Biden has been giving it to the illegals coming across the border who never paid in to it. For some reason we give BILLIONS to foreign Countries and refuse to help our own people. The train accident in Ohio is a good example. Take the BILLIONS we donate to other Countries and start to use it to shore up Social Security and Medicare.
 

herb749

Well-Known Member
The only distinction with Medicare and SS tax receipts is accounting. It all goes in a pile, gets spent and a record is kept of what is owed for SS and Medicare. As the Republicans say, an "IOU" - which the Democrats dismiss. Because it's neither officially, but it IS, essentially, because we manage to PAY them every year while running a deficit overall.

It's kind of like having your paycheck direct deposited into savings and checking - with overdrafts automatically drawn from savings. Every month you pay the bills, but it's always more than the amount in checking, so the overdrafts kick in. You tell yourself you're not taking from savings, because you don't move the money, but it happens anyway.

What the Republicans have observed for DECADES is - see, FICA works like this - 7.65% of your income is taken out - and your employer ALSO pays 7.65% - for a total of 15.3%. TRY and imagine HOW MUCH retirement savings you would have, if SS worked like you THOUGHT it worked - if that 15.3% didn't go into a big slush pile but into an investment plan FOR YOU.

I'll tell you what would happen - you'd be freaking rich by retirement. Uncle Sam takes essentially 15.3% of your income, spends most of it, and promises to give you a fraction of it 50 years later. And NOTHING if you die first. Sucks, doesn't it? If it was YOUR money, you could at least leave it to your children.

What the GOP has proposed - is to gradually or partially invest those dollars. The Dems have pointed to the worst collapses in the market is an indicator that the market is not a safe place. Well neither is Uncle Sam. At least the market, over long periods of time, makes money. Actually, the stock market has been the most profitable place for your money over any 30 year stretch in history. It loses big some years, gains others, but ALWAYS outstrips the government in payment.

Only if you could put the money in investments and leave it there. Democrats fear you will panic and try to pull it out.

Medicaid keeps expanding because they keep adding people to it on a temporary basis, then never removing them. There are millions who will lose it from the pandemic ending. The democrats will cry about people without insurance and weasel a way for them to remain.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Only if you could put the money in investments and leave it there. Democrats fear you will panic and try to pull it out.

Medicaid keeps expanding because they keep adding people to it on a temporary basis, then never removing them. There are millions who will lose it from the pandemic ending. The democrats will cry about people without insurance and weasel a way for them to remain.
They ought to structure such as they do their OWN Thrift Savings Plan - no withdrawals at all until a certain age - limited borrowing - and so forth.

But can you imagine? A program where employer and employee alike contribute and it’s 15% + every year?

Washington doesn’t like it because without that money they can’t spend like crazy and just kick the can down the road.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Interesting that the first “myth” it tried to dispel is that Social Security is going broke. And then unwittingly PROVES it in the following sentences.

If you pay out more in bills than you take in, you are by definition - “going broke” as in, not broke yet but soon to be UNLESS you fix it. And the writer says that.

Thing is with SS the pay OUTS are forty, fifty years in future. If you can’t make payments in five years because you’re losing money NOW, you’re BROKE because your time frame is DECADES not years. Saying you’re solvent because you’re fine at the end of the year is like saying you’re not broke cuz you still have checks.
 
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Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Medicaid is payed for by FICA tax taken out from your paycheck?
Are you talking about Medicare or Medicaid?

Medicaid is a joint Fed-State program that isn't funded by FICA, the Fed picks up about 2/3 total cost.

Medicare funding comes from FICA employee contributions, employer contributions and participant premiums and co-payments.

What gets me is the Medicare Advantage where the Fed contracts out the coverage to private insurance companies (that in lots of cases give better coverage and a reduction (or elimination) participant premium and co-pays). And apparently they are making money off of it or they wouldn't be doing it.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Congress broke into that piggy bank years ago and left an IOU ...

Yup. Why do you think they're trying to kill off all the old people?

If we weren't sending billions to Ukraine and every other corrupt shithole, and paying for every ****ing Mexican's rent and groceries and education, and and and, there would be plenty of money for SS/Med.

But hey, let's all go to the Kennedy Center that we paid for. :yay:
 

WingsOfGold

Well-Known Member
Revamp SS and Medicare... maybe. Perhaps one with 5 mil liquid cash shouldn't be receiving it. I wonder if the likes of Piglosi, Finklestein, the turtle and Sanders are drawling? Yes, they should be paying for their own medical as well out of pocket.
 
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SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
If we weren't sending billions to Ukraine and every other corrupt shithole, and paying for every ****ing Mexican's rent and groceries and education, and and and, there would be plenty of money for SS/Med.
Not even close. Expenditures for Medicare and Social Security are measured in trillions, each. We’ve given or promised Ukraine as much as 24 billion.

And the entire budget is in the 6-7 trillion amount. So, like .3% goes to Ukraine and they haven’t even gotten it all yet.

It’s like deciding to save electricity by turning off one light. Sure it’s SOMETHING but when you’re spending over a trillion on SS and need another trillion, a few billion isn’t going to make a difference. It’s picking up a penny when you need twenty bucks.
 

Monello

Smarter than the average bear
PREMO Member
Actually, the stock market has been the most profitable place for your money over any 30 year stretch in history.
An argument could be made for real estate yielding a bigger bang for your buck. Plus there is the actual utility of using it while it increases in value. There are programs where you can control a large value property for little or zero money down.
 

HemiHauler

Well-Known Member
OK, look. No one is an idiot. But you'd all do well to look into Modern Monetary Theory, the heterodox that drives our carefully managed and planned economy.

Under MMT, creation of money is a government monopoly, and that money has value because of the government's ability to tax in that same currency. If you don't understand what is meant by that, know that I cannot satisfy my bill to Uncle Sam with HemiBuxx, nor can any of you with any other currency but one that is the public monopoly, the United States Dollar.

Social Security is no different than any other government spending program. You see, since government can issue currency at will, out of thin air, it doesn't make sense that there is a numbered account with our names and contributions and balances. SS represents a promise to pay in the future based on myriad inputs. Government doesn't need to "save" these dollars for you since government can make money at will, again -- out of thin air. SS is a government spending program and like any other can be stopped at any time for any reason. Of course, it's political suicide to do that, but that's another discussion.

By definition, money cannot have value to government since they can will it into existence at any time. Money has value to the citizenry because we need to (a) satisfy a federal tax; and (b) sustain our desired lifestyle and savings goals.

There is no lockbox, never was, never will be. No money was "raided", because -- I am beating a dead horse here -- money has no value to government, so there was no money to raid. This money will be brought into existence the instant it is needed. It will be "offset" by the taxes we have "paid" which really just means destroyed, taken out of existence by the government.

As far as federal income taxes (ostensibly to allow the government operate), those are nothing but a lever to reduce (or induce) consumer spending depending on un/employment. We often here about a "natural rate of unemployment", but that's not really a thing. It's just a way of signaling that if employment gets "too full" (there is a theory of Full Employment), the taxation lever is used to reduce the ability of consumers to consume. Taxation just pulls money out of the economy, it's only notionally used to "fund our spending programs". Conversely, when employment gets too low (meaning high unemployment) a more liberal tax policy is used to induce consumers to consume more (which leads to increased demand, which puts factory workers to work, which puts transportation workers to work, etc., etc.

Lots of folks think this sort of stuff is the gateway drug to conspiracy theories everywhere involving one world government, Bilderberg, Davos, etc., but it's what gave us the huge and successful middle class we have today. It's one of the things that make us the strongest economy in the free world.

I'd recommend reading the whole MMT wiki page and jump off and read authors that interest you. Start with this chart compares Keynesian (the orthodox) to MMT (the heterodox)

 
So social security is payed for by FICA taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into a social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but paying out retirement checks right? Why then is it even shown as part of the debt or a line item for govt expenditure. Why isn’t SS and the lockbox set aside since they are supposed to be a wash…
As you think of new and novel ways of calling me an idiot think about this also, Medicaid is payed for by FICA tax taken out from your paycheck? This is supposedly put into the same social security lockbox that can’t be touched by the government for anything but Medicaid?
As other's have already pointed out, there is no lockbox. (I'm not even sure what that would mean in this context. It seems like little more than a disingenuous buzzword thrown around for political purposes.) And sense a significant portion of the federal debt is money owed to the Social Security Trust Funds, and Social Security represents a huge portion of federal spending and taxation, it makes sense to report that debt both inclusive of and exclusive of the money owed by the general treasury to the Social Security program. The same goes for reporting of annual federal deficits; it makes sense to report them both accounting for and not accounting for the net transfers between the general treasury and the Social Security program.

There's long been a lot of innacurate information spread and mistaken assumptions made regarding the way Social Security and Medicare work. Consequently the general understanding of those programs is, based on my experience, pretty poor. So hopefully you won't mind if I offer a broad-strokes explanation of how they actually do (and have) work(ed) when it comes to finances and accounting.

At the very beginning of the Social Security program there was no separate trust fund. Money coming in or going out was lumped in with general treasury funds (though there was tracking of what money was ostensibly owed to the SS program). But that was quickly - as in still in the 30s - changed such that there was a separate trust fund for SS.

Importantly, from the beginning, excess SS funds were required by law to be put into federal securities or otherwise in securities fully backed by the United States. In other words, excess SS money was required to be loaned to the general treasury. (That actually made and continues to make sense. What other option is practical and advisable? We can have that conversation if you want.) Also importantly, the program wasn't conceived as or structured such that it would be one that built up a substantial nest egg. It was a mostly pay-as-you go program that collected tax revenues from certain people and used those funds to pay benefits to certain other people - i.e., a present day wealth transfer program. It wasn't meant to collect and save money for the future, so there wasn't ever going to be a huge pile of cash to be loaned to the general treasury. As recently as the mid-80s the amount saved by the program (and currently loaned to the general treasury) was less than 20% of the amount it paid annually in benefits.

During the Reagan Administration this was changed. We realized the program - even leaving aside the generally problematic nature of the ill-advised program - was going to run into major financial problems because of changing demographics. Bluntly, there would soon be too many older people not working and needing to be supported by too few younger people working. The program was originally designed to support a very small number of retired people with a very large number of working people. The original SS retirement age was greater than the average life expectancy at the time. But people were living longer and, no doubt in part due to the SS program, still expecting to retire at around 65. And at some point the wave of Baby Boomer retirements was going to make the financial realities untenable. The balance between beneficiaries and contributors was going to be too far out of whack.

So, among other changes, we raised tax rates more than was needed to roughly align SS income with expenses so that the fund could build a nest egg. With those changes it would start to matter more that the the program's savings were required to be loaned to the general treasury. (But again, what other option is there?)

Around 2010 non-interest income for the program started falling below expenses, but because its interest income (from the funds loaned to the general treasury) was substantial by that point the size of the Trust Fund continued to increase. Interest made up the difference and then some for about 10 years. But now the program is starting to run a deficit, even accounting for the interest it receives from the general treasury. The $3 trillion or so in the Trust Fund is starting to shrink - hence the impending problem.

This train wreck was set up almost a century ago when the program was first implemented. It could have been more easily avoided, or significantly delayed, if we'd have had the political will to do so a decade or three ago. But we didn't. Very few people want their taxes raised. Very few people want their benefits cut. Very few people want to have to wait longer to start receiving those benefits. And the people who would likely be most negatively impacted by the needed changes tended to vote at higher rates than the rest. So there's been little political will to switch tracks. Now we're just about at the in-the-tunnel-and-can-see-headlights-approaching stage where options are quickly becoming more limited and any escape will be more painful.

On another note, I assume you meant to refer to Medicare rather than Medicaid. That being the case, I'd point out that only Part A of Medicare is funded by FICA taxes. For Parts B and D, to the extent they aren't user-financed, they are funded from the general treasury. In that sense they are little different from other welfare programs.
 
There was never a lockbox, I don't think that ever happened although Al Gore talked about it.

Medicare, Medicaid, and SS have always gone into the general fund.

The good news is most government debt is written against another part of the government. My uncle first worked for the IRS and then transferred to the Bureau of Public Debt, the things he told me were a bit unbelievable.
Not most of it, but a very large portion of it, yes. The reality is that the great majority of our public debt is effectively owed to... ourselves. Much of it is held by other government accounts as you suggest and much of it is held by private Americans - individually or collectively through, e.g., mutual funds or corporations.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I have always assumed that there will be no SS for me when I "retire". It's a pyramid scheme that was always unsustainable and destined to collapse. It's always pissed me off to see how much money the government confiscates while lying to me and saying I'll get it back in my old age.

And I get super worn out with people all like, "Oh, that little bit of money our overlords launder and piss away wouldn't make a difference." I'd love to see your family budget because in FACT this bit plus that bit plus some more bits add up to a great deal of money.
 
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