Supreme Court rules against Trump administration bid to end DACA program

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
I found this surprising - and I suppose it's why I am not a lawyer. I kind of thought that any executive order could be undone with another.
Kind of like if I subscribe to something I am free to unsubscribe.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
I found this surprising - and I suppose it's why I am not a lawyer. I kind of thought that any executive order could be undone with another.
Kind of like if I subscribe to something I am free to unsubscribe.

It looks like the Supreme Court can do pretty much anything it wants, from making laws to endorsing executive orders.
 
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SamSpade

Well-Known Member
It looks like the Supreme Court can do pretty much anything it wants, from making laws to endorsing executive orders.

Well the article quotes Roberts as saying it's not their job to rule on policy - only legality (in a nutshell). They could actually AGREE with what Trump wanted, just ruled he couldn't do it with current law. THAT to me is what they're supposed to do, although I kind of feel they went around Grandma's barn to find a way to pull it out of their ass.
 

awpitt

Main Streeter
I found this surprising - and I suppose it's why I am not a lawyer. I kind of thought that any executive order could be undone with another.
Kind of like if I subscribe to something I am free to unsubscribe.

It really shouldn't be surprising. Presidents don't have free rein when it comes to EOs as EOs are subject to judicial review just as laws are.
 

awpitt

Main Streeter
It looks like the Supreme Court can do pretty much anything it wants, from making laws to endorsing executive orders.


The Supreme Court cannot do anything it wants. It can rule only on cases that are brought before it. Which is what they did today.
 

Monello

Smarter than the average bear
PREMO Member
An illegal executive order to protect people here illegally. But it's OK with the court. Well it appears to be reasonable to 5 of it's members.
 

awpitt

Main Streeter
It is true that DACA protects people who were brought here illegally but DACA is not based on an illegal executive order. For that to be true, it would have to be ruled as being illegal by the Supreme Court. Today's decision may have been a 5-4 vote but that is irrelevant. It's how it works. A team that wins the Super Bowl by one point gets the Lombardi Trophy just as a team that wins the Super Bowl by twenty points.
 

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
Based on a quick read-through, I think the OP misses the point of the criticisms against the decision. This has nothing to do with SCOTUS being able to review EOs, it has to do with deciding which EO to back.

The court ruled that the current president cannot revoke an EO of a previous president. The basis for the decision was really bad legal logic and the downstream effect of it will be felt until another SCOTUS delivers a kill shot to this retarded decision. Those celebrating the decision may very well come to regret it; much like Harry Reid's "nuclear option" choice.

@Monello is essentially correct, re: illegal EO and the OP is essentially incorrect, re: SCOTUS review is required to determine illegality. EOs are within the Executive's purview and don't hold the effect of law. So if one administration puts an EO into effect that violates US Code, then I would think it reasonable for the Executive to remove or modify the EO to bring it into compliance. SCOTUS' majority had a desired end and used utter BS to achieve it.

I don't necessarily care about DACA, but I do care about DUE PROCESS. This was a travesty. So in just a few days SCOTUS has usurped the enumerated powers of the Legislative and the Executive. The only folks celebrating these two decisions are those who are interested in the unraveling of our system.

Someone must have kompromat on Roberts.

--- End of line (MCP)
 
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awpitt

Main Streeter
The OP doesn't miss the point of the criticisms at all. The folks criticizing the decision are the ones not happy with it. Plain and simple. So, now the Supreme Court is "usurping the enumerated powers..." and making "retarded decisions".

The court did not rule that, "the current president cannot revoke an EO of a previous president". That happens quite often. Mostly when administrations change.

The court did rule that DHS's ending of DACA was not in compliance with the procedural requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act, which sets the rule making procedures for federal agencies.

If anything, this decision helps to preserve our system, not unravel it. EOs need to be implemented within the legal requirements. Trump's DACA EO did not. He is free to go back and redo the EO so it meets the requirements of the APA.

The original 2012 DACA EO remains legal until the Supreme Court says otherwise or the Congress passes legislation saying otherwise.
 

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
The OP doesn't miss the point of the criticisms at all. The folks criticizing the decision are the ones not happy with it. Plain and simple. So, now the Supreme Court is "usurping the enumerated powers..." and making "retarded decisions".

The court did not rule that, "the current president cannot revoke an EO of a previous president". That happens quite often. Mostly when administrations change.

The court did rule that DHS's ending of DACA was not in compliance with the procedural requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act, which sets the rule making procedures for federal agencies.

If anything, this decision helps to preserve our system, not unravel it. EOs need to be implemented within the legal requirements. Trump's DACA EO did not. He is free to go back and redo the EO so it meets the requirements of the APA.

The original 2012 DACA EO remains legal until the Supreme Court says otherwise or the Congress passes legislation saying otherwise.
Fair reply. Still disagree.

But why are the critics not happy? Some b/c they hate DACA. Some (I'm in this crowd) because the reasoning was flawed and straw grasping on the part of SCOTUS. In that vein, see here:

Here's a Breitbart article:

Here's a snip from it that succinctly presents the majority's rationale (what I'm so worked up over):
In a complex, 5-4 opinion, in which Chief Justice John Roberts joined the Court’s four liberal justices, the majority held that the administration had (a) failed to offer sufficient reasons for rescinding the policy, and had (b) failed to provide enough consideration about what would happen to the 700,000 people who had registered for the DACA program.
(a) Failed to provide sufficient reasons? Huh? How about the fact that the original EO was an exercise in over-reach? And that the current Executive was redressing this over-reach?

(b) Failed to provide enough consideration? Well, maybe the issuer of the original EO should have thought about that? Cynically, I bet he did, knowing that what happened is what would happen. The court fails to note the approach by the current administration to work with Congress, but it was rebuffed? Cynically, I bet the Democrats knew exactly how to play this out.

Speaking of the operative words here ("sufficiant" and "enough") I am willing to bet a nickel (plug or otherwise) that the bar to clear by this SCOTUS wrt the procedural requirements of the APA will be set at an unreachable height.

I was willing to give Roberts a pass with his tortured ACA tax reasoning, but this take shows he is a sub-par judge, has an agenda quite contrary to why he was nominated, and/or someone is holding something over his head (maybe airplane flights?). There are no other reasonable ways to explain this utter stupidity.

In the end, this posturing by Roberts is every bit as ridiculous as Judge Sullivan's in the Flynn case: judges playing a game of couper les cheveux en quatre (i.e., "hair splitting" or "'angels on the head of a pin' counting" or quibbling) in order to expand their judicial reach. Awful. Simply awful. Refer back to The Hill post.

Again, thank you for your take on the case. As I said and you can see, I disagree.

--- End of line (MCP)
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
(a) Failed to provide sufficient reasons? Huh? How about the fact that the original EO was an exercise in over-reach? And that the current Executive was redressing this over-reach?

Morons like T will never understand that part.
 

Rommey

Well-Known Member
I don't see where DACA was done by Executive Order. It looks like it was done through an Executive Memorandum and implemented by a Dept of Homeland Security policy memorandum.

So I ask...since the court ruled that DHS's ending of DACA was not in compliance with the procedural requirements of the Administrative Procedure Act, which sets the rule making procedures for federal agencies, then how were the original implementation in compliance with the Administrative Procedure Act?
 

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
I now choose to call Roberts "Chief Justice Humphrey Appleby."

--- End of line (MCP)
 

22AcaciaAve

Well-Known Member
Thing is the left is now screaming for congress to pass legislation to protect DACA immigrants. The irony is that Trump proposed just that and went further than anyone with his immigration overhaul. The right shot it down because of those proposals. But the left also refused to consider the archaic points of the diversity lottery and family migration. The fourth prong was the wall, which quite honestly could have been discussed and tweaked. Had they worked it out and passed that initiative they would have had the protection they desire for DACA.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
The point being missed is that the ruling was only with regards to the DHS "rule" change not complying with the requirements of the APA. It is not about an executive order being repealed by a successor to the office as there is no executive order to begin with. Now, if Homeland Security revises or rescinds the order in the appropriate manner, per the APA, DACA could be ended.
 

Yooper

Up. Identified. Lase. Fire. On the way.
The point being missed is that the ruling was only with regards to the DHS "rule" change not complying with the requirements of the APA. It is not about an executive order being repealed by a successor to the office as there is no executive order to begin with. Now, if Homeland Security revises or rescinds the order in the appropriate manner, per the APA, DACA could be ended.
I rescind calling it an EO, then. I'm guilty, apparently, of conflating what Obama directed the DHS to do with an EO. My bad.

Having said that, my points still remain valid I believe. CJ Roberts hid behind a stupid line on administrative details to conger up a ridiculous opinion and handed the win to the liberal side of the court (who could have cared less about the details; all it wants is for DACA to be formalized and immovable). Roberts rulings leave me with little faith that with any amount of tweaking will satisfy him.

--- End of line (MCP)
 

Crabcatcher79

Well-Known Member
I rescind calling it an EO, then. I'm guilty, apparently, of conflating what Obama directed the DHS to do with an EO. My bad.

Having said that, my points still remain valid I believe. CJ Roberts hid behind a stupid line on administrative details to conger up a ridiculous opinion and handed the win to the liberal side of the court (who could have cared less about the details; all it wants is for DACA to be formalized and immovable). Roberts rulings leave me with little faith that with any amount of tweaking will satisfy him.

--- End of line (MCP)

The liberals were willing to give Trump money for his wall in exchange for not challenging DACA.

He gambled and lost. If he doesn’t get another term he won’t be a to try it again before then.

He should have taken the deal.

The question is not who has what on Roberts but who paid off Kavanaughs $1.2 million in debts right before he was elected. That is much more troubling.
 
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