Taxation Is Theft?

[thefuture093]

If it is wrong to steal (ie. take something without permission), then why is it considered acceptable when individuals calling themselves government take money from people via taxation?

 

[This_person]

If it is wrong to steal (ie. take something without permission), then why is it considered acceptable when individuals calling themselves government take money from people via taxation?

One is a law, and the other is against the law.

Taxation is specifically accepted in the Constitution as a means of revenue-raising to provide for the welfare of the United States government. Stealing is taking things against the law.

Taxation is like buying citizenship, like buying a product. It's not stealing because it is "voluntary". It is voluntary because you don't have to live here.

 

[thefuture093]

One is a law, and the other is against the law.

Taxation is specifically accepted in the Constitution as a means of revenue-raising to provide for the welfare of the United States government. Stealing is taking things against the law.

Taxation is like buying citizenship, like buying a product. It's not stealing because it is "voluntary". It is voluntary because you don't have to live here.

You stated, "Stealing is taking things against the law". What's your definition of theft?

So you're claiming taxation is voluntary because we live within a certain region of the world, but don't we live on property that is justly ours or we justly rent? The implication appears to be that government owns all of the land in this region.

 

[Restitution]

I never understood the whole "claiming your State tax return on next year's federal taxes."

1) Lets say I make $50K in 2015
2) That $50K get taxed Federally in 2015
3) That $50K gets taxed by the State in 2015
4) I get a Federal return when I file in the beginning of 2016
5) I get a State return when I file in the beginning of 2016
6) When I file again in the beginning of 2017, I have to claim #5 as income

So..... SEE #2. Didn't the money, for which I received a State refund, already get taxed Federally?

Am I missing something here???

 

[thefuture093]

I never understood the whole "claiming your State tax return on next year's federal taxes."

1) Lets say I make $50K in 2015
2) That $50K get taxed Federally in 2015
3) That $50K gets taxed by the State in 2015
4) I get a Federal return when I file in the beginning of 2016
5) I get a State return when I file in the beginning of 2016
6) When I file again in the beginning of 2017, I have to claim #5 as income

So..... SEE #2. Didn't the money, for which I received a State refund, already get taxed Federally?

Am I missing something here???

Yeah, it would appear that some of your income is being taxed twice.

The question I'm raising is whether their claim to your justly acquired income is legitimate?

 

[SamSpade]

So..... SEE #2. Didn't the money, for which I received a State refund, already get taxed Federally?

Am I missing something here???

A little.

Let's say, for the sake of argument you choose to have an ENORMOUS amount of your income withheld - say, you mark your W-2 to have several thousand bucks IN ADDITION to anything else withheld.
You make say, 50,000 but for some reason elect to have an additional 20,000 withheld.

After you've been taxed - that money is returned to you.

BUT - you're still taxed on your income. That 20,000 bucks you lent to the state is still income. You just had it withheld.

Your income got taxed - your refund is the part withheld that was NOT part of the tax. It's still income. It still gets taxed. Otherwise, everyone in the nation could pull this stunt and claim they didn't make any money.

 

[This_person]

I never understood the whole "claiming your State tax return on next year's federal taxes."

1) Lets say I make $50K in 2015
2) That $50K get taxed Federally in 2015
3) That $50K gets taxed by the State in 2015
4) I get a Federal return when I file in the beginning of 2016
5) I get a State return when I file in the beginning of 2016
6) When I file again in the beginning of 2017, I have to claim #5 as income

So..... SEE #2. Didn't the money, for which I received a State refund, already get taxed Federally?

Am I missing something here???

Actually, you should have taken #5 off of your stated income as one of your deductions. Thus, you are then being taxed on the difference between what you reported you paid and what you actually paid.

 

[This_person]

You stated, "Stealing is taking things against the law". What's your definition of theft?

From definitions.uslegal.com, "Generally, a person commits the crime of theft of property if he or she: Knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over the property of another, with intent to deprive the owner of his or her property".

The key word there is unauthorized. You authorize the government to take your tax money.

So you're claiming taxation is voluntary because we live within a certain region of the world, but don't we live on property that is justly ours or we justly rent? The implication appears to be that government owns all of the land in this region.

I cannot sway your inference, sorry.

 

[Restitution]

That 20,000 bucks you lent to the state is still income. You just had it withheld.

But that $20K was taxed prior to being withheld... right?

Actually, you should have taken #5 off of your stated income as one of your deductions. Thus, you are then being taxed on the difference between what you reported you paid and what you actually paid.

My point is WHY do I even have to report that on the Federal tax return in the first place? That money is a return based on income that was already taxed Federally.... :shrug:

 

[This_person]

But that $20K was taxed prior to being withheld... right?



My point is WHY do I even have to report that on the Federal tax return in the first place? That money is a return based on income that was already taxed Federally.... :shrug:

Because your point is invalid. Your gross income is not what is taxed. You were taxed on your income minus deductions. The deductions include what you paid to the state for state taxes. If you receive a state tax refund, then not all of the money you claimed as a deduction was actually paid to the state, therefore it is eligible for federal taxation.

 

[Restitution]

Because your point is invalid. Your gross income is not what is taxed. You were taxed on your income minus deductions. The deductions include what you paid to the state for state taxes. If you receive a state tax refund, then not all of the money you claimed as a deduction was actually paid to the state, therefore it is eligible for federal taxation.

Interesting. So, you are saying that the Feds tax my income AFTER the state gets their bite? I know there are pre-tax deductions from income but I never knew that STATE TAX was one of them.

If this is the case, then why do the Feds only take your return into account and not the entire tax taken by the State for the period?

 

[thefuture093]

From definitions.uslegal.com, "Generally, a person commits the crime of theft of property if he or she: Knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over the property of another, with intent to deprive the owner of his or her property".

The key word there is unauthorized. You authorize the government to take your tax money.

I'm not understanding where I authorized government officials to take my money. The key difference, like you said, is the voluntary aspect. Where do we voluntarily agree to pay taxes?

I cannot sway your inference, sorry.

Given the evidence you have provided, it appears that is the conclusion. Does the government own the land that us "citizens" live on?

 

[This_person]

Interesting. So, you are saying that the Feds tax my income AFTER the state gets their bite? I know there are pre-tax deductions from income but I never knew that STATE TAX was one of them.

If this is the case, then why do the Feds only take your return into account and not the entire tax taken by the State for the period?

Your taxation rate from your check is based on your gross income. Your actual tasks owed is based on your actual income AFTER things like deductions. The taxes taken from your check are estimates.

I'm not sure what your last question means.

 

[This_person]

I'm not understanding where I authorized government officials to take my money. The key difference, like you said, is the voluntary aspect. Where do we voluntarily agree to pay taxes?

That's what I said, but I was being a bit facetious. The law allows it, and how it is handled is called "voluntary" in that you are not billed, but rather you fill out the forms and via your forms and you sending in part of your paycheck without challenge you are voluntarily paying your taxes. The alternate would be you getting a bill from the government, and then having to have an enforcement arm that gets the taxes not paid through billing that way.

Given the evidence you have provided, it appears that is the conclusion. Does the government own the land that us "citizens" live on?

The owner owns it. By owning it, you acquiesce to paying taxes on it to pay for the infrastructure of the government that supports your ownership of it. If you fail to pay your taxes, the government will take the land from you as payment for those things it provides.

 

[Clem72]

Interesting. So, you are saying that the Feds tax my income AFTER the state gets their bite? I know there are pre-tax deductions from income but I never knew that STATE TAX was one of them.

If this is the case, then why do the Feds only take your return into account and not the entire tax taken by the State for the period?

You know that W-2 thingie you use to calculate your wages? It has a section that shows withholdings for Federal, State, and Local taxes. Some of your taxes are based on the gross income, but most are based on that income minus deductions (which include all of those taxes you already paid to someone else). Not sure how it can be made much clearer.

You get paid $100.
You had the state withhold $20.
You report to the Fed that your net pay is $80 ($100-$20).
.
.
.
Sometime in the next year you get a return on your state taxes of $10.
If you had perfectly measured your State Tax burden previously you would not have received this $10, but because you did not you were able to claim that you made $10 less the previous year, however you now have $10 additional this year to account for.

Rinse/Repeat.

 

[Restitution]

Maybe I can more clearly try to explain my point with some of the others included.....

So, say my NET pay for the year of 2015 is $50,000
Out of that $50,000.... I paid $7,000 in Federal tax and I paid $4,000 in State taxes.
For simplicity, lets say for TY2015, I file my taxes and get $0 back from Federal and $1,000 back from State.

Now, for TY2016... I have to claim that $1,000 State return on my Federal taxes.

From what I understand, and from what This_person is telling me..... I was not taxed Federally on the $50,000 Net income. I was actually Federally taxed on $46,000 of Gross income?? (Net income minus the $4,000 State tax)

Is this correct?

 

[This_person]

Maybe I can more clearly try to explain my point with some of the others included.....

So, say my NET pay for the year of 2015 is $50,000
Out of that $50,000.... I paid $7,000 in Federal tax and I paid $4,000 in State taxes.
For simplicity, lets say for TY2015, I file my taxes and get $0 back from Federal and $1,000 back from State.

Now, for TY2016... I have to claim that $1,000 State return on my Federal taxes.

From what I understand, and from what This_person is telling me..... I was not taxed Federally on the $50,000 Net income. I was actually Federally taxed on $46,000 of Gross income?? (Net income minus the $4,000 State tax)

Is this correct?

Nope.

What I said was your estimated taxes that you pay out of your paycheck assume a steady income at that rate. Say you make $52,000/year and are paid weekly. Each week, you gross $1,000. Federal income taxes are withdrawn from your paycheck based on $1,000/week for 52 weeks. State taxes are taken from your paycheck based on $1,000/week for 52 weeks.

At the end of year, let's say your state taxes were withdrawn at 6%, or $60/week, or a total of $3120 for that year. But, your actual tax owed to the state (for whatever reason) is only $2820, meaning you get $300 "refund" of your taxes paid. Meanwhile, you filed your federal taxes, which includes what you paid (based on your W-2, what was actually withdrawn from your paycheck) to the state as a deduction. Thus, your taxable income for that year was reduced by $3120. But, you didn't really pay $3120, because out of that $3120 they gave you back $300. So, your taxable wage for your federal tax was actually $300 too low, because you claimed you paid it to the state when you didn't - you loaned it to the state at 0% interest and they paid it back.

That means your tax that year was off by $300 income that you said you didn't get, but you really ended up getting.

So, they throw it on your next year's tax as income instead of filing an amended return. It's easier for them, easier for you.

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Clem72]

Maybe I can more clearly try to explain my point with some of the others included.....

So, say my NET pay for the year of 2015 is $50,000
Out of that $50,000.... I paid $7,000 in Federal tax and I paid $4,000 in State taxes.
For simplicity, lets say for TY2015, I file my taxes and get $0 back from Federal and $1,000 back from State.

Now, for TY2016... I have to claim that $1,000 State return on my Federal taxes.

From what I understand, and from what This_person is telling me..... I was not taxed Federally on the $50,000 Net income. I was actually Federally taxed on $46,000 of Gross income?? (Net income minus the $4,000 State tax)

Is this correct?

Not sure why This_Person told you that you were incorrect, then went through the trouble of outlining the situation that boils down to exactly what you wrote.

You basically have it correct. As I pointed out, the W2 includes what you had withheld for State Taxes, but as This_Person outlined that withholding is an estimate, if you receive a return that counts as new income (since you previously used it as a deduction).

Likewise, if you end up owing you can take it off of next years taxes.

 

[b23hqb]

Yeah, it would appear that some of your income is being taxed twice.

The question I'm raising is whether their claim to your justly acquired income is legitimate?

Are you a sovereign nation person? They'll be able to explain it to you real well.

 

[This_person]

Not sure why This_Person told you that you were incorrect, then went through the trouble of outlining the situation that boils down to exactly what you wrote.

You basically have it correct. As I pointed out, the W2 includes what you had withheld for State Taxes, but as This_Person outlined that withholding is an estimate, if you receive a return that counts as new income (since you previously used it as a deduction).

Likewise, if you end up owing you can take it off of next years taxes.

Because of the previous question, I took this one to mean that the rate of taxation estimated with each check is based on gross minus state, and I was saying that is incorrect. When one files their federal, they take the W-2 state amount off of their federal income, so when Restitution's question was about $50,000 NET, that already included the $4,000 in state taxes. So, the $1,000 gotten back means that Restitution would have been taxed (essentially) on $51,000, not $46,000.