The Best Use for our National Guard

[forestal]

So with the floundering relief efforts for recent tornadoes in Oklahoma and Kansas highlighting the fact that much our National Guard and their equipment is over in Iraq keeping a few Iraqis from killing each other, do you think maybe we should be taking care of our own a little bit more?

<img src="http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/075519541_greenburg-050507.jpg"/>


Via CBSNews.com:

Paramedic Annette Gasten and her German shepherd, Greta, had a grim weekend searching amid the piles of wreckage left by one of the strongest tornadoes to rake across the Plains.

Every business on Greensburg's main street was demolished and officials estimate as much as 95 percent of the town was destroyed. Tree trunks stood bare, stripped of most of their branches. All the churches were destroyed.

At least eight people in this community of 1,500 were dead, putting the state's total death toll at 10. No one was found Sunday in the debris.

Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said Sunday evening that the state's response will likely be hampered because much of the equipment usually positioned around the state to respond to emergencies — including tents, trucks and semitrailers - is now in Iraq. Read more…

​

 

[smoothmarine187]

I think they should be used as charter boats in order to make more money for the war effort. Now go pound sand in your crack and then post again when you have shrooms growing out of it.

 

[Bustem' Down]

So with the floundering relief efforts for recent tornadoes in Oklahoma and Kansas highlighting the fact that much our National Guard and their equipment is over in Iraq keeping a few Iraqis from killing each other, do you think maybe we should be taking care of our own a little bit more?

<img src="http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/075519541_greenburg-050507.jpg"/>


Via CBSNews.com:

Paramedic Annette Gasten and her German shepherd, Greta, had a grim weekend searching amid the piles of wreckage left by one of the strongest tornadoes to rake across the Plains.

Every business on Greensburg's main street was demolished and officials estimate as much as 95 percent of the town was destroyed. Tree trunks stood bare, stripped of most of their branches. All the churches were destroyed.

At least eight people in this community of 1,500 were dead, putting the state's total death toll at 10. No one was found Sunday in the debris.

Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said Sunday evening that the state's response will likely be hampered because much of the equipment usually positioned around the state to respond to emergencies — including tents, trucks and semitrailers - is now in Iraq. Read more…

​

Typical, you have no idea that the purpose of the National Gaurd is. Idiot.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Let me help you understand this.

The Militia Act of 1903 organized the various state militias into the present National Guard system. The Army National Guard is part of the United States Army, comprising approximately one half of its available combat forces and approximately one third of its support organization.

A part of the Army, to be used in times of war.

In World War I, the National Guard made up 40 percent of the U.S. combat divisions in France. In World War II the National Guard made up 19 divisions. One hundred forty thousand guardsmen were mobilized during the Korean War and over 63,000 for Operation Desert Storm. They have also participated in U.S. peacekeeping operations in Somalia, Haiti, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bosnia, and Kosovo as well as for natural disasters, strikes, riots and security for the Olympic Games when they have been in the States.

Hmmmmm seems like this is not new. Try not being ignorant for a change.

 

[Pushrod]

So with the floundering relief efforts for recent tornadoes in Oklahoma and Kansas highlighting the fact that much our National Guard and their equipment is over in Iraq keeping a few Iraqis from killing each other, do you think maybe we should be taking care of our own a little bit more?

[/indent]

Oops! I see you missed the short bus again this morning, Forestidiot!

 

[desertrat]

I think they should at least leave enough to deal with problems here. And while we're at it why not post a few on campuses and at malls? They could act as recruiters and discourage shooters.

 

[Larry Gude]

Folks...

...even the blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile.

There is not much of an argument otherwise; W has left the military well undersized and he is putting a serious hurting on the guard and their families. Emergency is one thing. Using them as regular troops is quite another.

Add in the number of contractors and we could and should have at least 200,000 more active duty military and this should have started on 9/12/2001.

It's kinda tough to blame cutting 400,000 active duty on Clinton 7 years later.

 

[Bustem' Down]

...even the blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile.

There is not much of an argument otherwise; W has left the military well undersized and he is putting a serious hurting on the guard and their families. Emergency is one thing. Using them as regular troops is quite another.

I disagree, the gaurd is Army, not some humanitarian group. Every guardsman knows he could be called up for war from day one he enters. The only difference between them and reservists is that they cannot be called up idividually, they are stood up by units. They are what's become of the state militias.

 

[Larry Gude]

I understand that...

I disagree, the gaurd is Army, not some humanitarian group. Every guardsman knows he could be called up for war from day one he enters. The only difference between them and reservists is that they cannot be called up idividually, they are stood up by units. They are what's become of the state militias.

...but by the same token, they are being treated and used as active duty some 6 years after we should have been actively expanding the regular forces. There is not one single Guardsman who thought this is what he was signing up for. I've talked to guys at Disney World on vacation, just back in 2003 and other places times and I know one personally who got blowed up and is a mess for life; they are being abused.

There is NO excuse for us not having more regular forces in this supposed oh so important war on terror. If it is so damn important treat it like it is and quit using up the civilian soldiers. They chose Guard to serve some, a weekend a month and two weeks a year to be ready for emergency need, not full time service.

 

[Bustem' Down]

...but by the same token, they are being treated and used as active duty some 6 years after we should have been actively expanding the regular forces. There is not one single Guardsman who thought this is what he was signing up for. I've talked to guys at Disney World on vacation, just back in 2003 and other places times and I know one personally who got blowed up and is a mess for life; they are being abused.

There is NO excuse for us not having more regular forces in this supposed oh so important war on terror. If it is so damn important treat it like it is and quit using up the civilian soldiers. They chose Guard to serve some, a weekend a month and two weeks a year to be ready for emergency need, not full time service.

I agree that the military should be expanded, you're preaching to the choir on that one, but I've also delt with reservists who ##### and moan when that have to do just thier 2 weeks. If you are not willing to do everything that the job entails, then don't sign up.

 

[Larry Gude]

I know that...

I agree that the military should be expanded, you're preaching to the choir on that one, but I've also delt with reservists who ##### and moan when that have to do just thier 2 weeks. If you are not willing to do everything that the job entails, then don't sign up.

...and there should be a good dose of STFU and do the job but, it's a matter of degree here. We're not talking a bit more service than normal, we're talking a great deal more. Guys who train to run 3 miles mile can be expected to handle 6 or even 8 when necessary, not marathons, so to speak. And when these people do emergency service, when they're asked to go 6 or 8, there should be a clear expectation that the emergency is being addressed by training more marathoners.

Bush does so many things that are simply beyond my ability to see the larger picture. It's like he chooses actions guaranteed to make it worse down the road. It's 2007 and our active duty hasn't changed much. We could and should have numerous new divisions built up in that time.

 

[awpitt]

...and there should be a good dose of STFU and do the job but, it's a matter of degree here. We're not talking a bit more service than normal, we're talking a great deal more. Guys who train to run 3 miles mile can be expected to handle 6 or even 8 when necessary, not marathons, so to speak. And when these people do emergency service, when they're asked to go 6 or 8, there should be a clear expectation that the emergency is being addressed by training more marathoners.

Bush does so many things that are simply beyond my ability to see the larger picture. It's like he chooses actions guaranteed to make it worse down the road. It's 2007 and our active duty hasn't changed much. We could and should have numerous new divisions built up in that time.

Good analogy, Larry. The Guard is definitely being used beyond what they are meant for. I’m guessing the lack of an increase in active duty forces is due to poor recruitment rates. I’ve talked with a few young folks who want to sign up but are waiting to do so until after Bush leaves office. What I hear from them is that they don’t have confidence in the current administration. Their words.

 

[MMDad]

I’m guessing the lack of an increase in active duty forces is due to poor recruitment rates.

That would be what we call a bad guess.

 

[awpitt]

That would be what we call a bad guess.

I called it a guess because I haven’t actually checked the numbers but I have heard quite a bit about the problems with meeting the recruitment goals so bad guess, it’s not.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[MMDad]

I called it a guess because I haven’t actually checked the numbers but I have heard quite a bit about the problems with meeting the recruitment goals so bad guess, it’s not.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what drives the size of the military. The military is not shrinking because of recruiting problems. The decrease has been mandated by congress, and the President has done nothing to reverse the decrease.

There is a lot of information available about how our government and our military actually work, and what the role of congress is. You should consider reading up a little bit.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what drives the size of the military. The military is not shrinking because of recruiting problems. The decrease has been mandated by congress, and the President has done nothing to reverse the decrease.

There is a lot of information available about how our government and our military actually work, and what the role of congress is. You should consider reading up a little bit.

...but we do all agree it should be a good bit larger and should have been so long before now?

 

[MMDad]

...but we do all agree it should be a good bit larger and should have been so long before now?

The force reductions that started 20 years ago should have never happened. Some of the blame rests on Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, and every congress in that time. But most of the blame belongs to us, the voters, for the poor choices we made in electing our leaders.

 

[itsbob]

...but by the same token, they are being treated and used as active duty some 6 years after we should have been actively expanding the regular forces. There is not one single Guardsman who thought this is what he was signing up for. I've talked to guys at Disney World on vacation, just back in 2003 and other places times and I know one personally who got blowed up and is a mess for life; they are being abused.

There is NO excuse for us not having more regular forces in this supposed oh so important war on terror. If it is so damn important treat it like it is and quit using up the civilian soldiers. They chose Guard to serve some, a weekend a month and two weeks a year to be ready for emergency need, not full time service.

The National Guard and Reserve problems (at least with the Army) go back well before Bush Jr.

Back in the 80's the decision was made to take almost all of the combat units out of the guard and reserve and put the onus on the Active Duty side to provide the warfighters. The amount of infantry and armor units in the NG and USAR were dropped significantly. The state of VT had multiple Infantry battalions in their NG, now I think they have a single unit that is actually attached to the 10th Mountain Division. One of the units tasks it to teach, train and maintain the facilities in VT for Mountaineering training. The rest of the units were turned into trasnportation, public affairs, water purification, and laundry and bath units.

The guard and reserve were basically given support roles, roles that were then provided by active components. Having done that, the plan was if war happened, the Regular Army would do the fighting, and the USAR/NG troops would be called up to do their support jobs.. There are MANY jobs in the reserves that you can't find in an active unit, or if you can find them there aren't enough of them to be any use in a combat environment.. FireFighter is a good example (as is Water Purification).. In peacetime our FireFighters on Army bases are all civilians, there are no active duty firemen... but we have entire firefighting units in the Reserves.

So that being said, any time the US goes to war now, the Reserves and Guard HAVE to be called up as the Regular Army does not have the manpower to support the warfighter without them.

It was a total shift in tactics and organization, so comparing the the USAR/NG callups today to anything we have done in the past is purely fantasy.

 

[Larry Gude]

How far...

It was a total shift in tactics and organization, so comparing the the USAR/NG callups today to anything we have done in the past is purely fantasy.

...do we go in recognizing the problem and when do we start fixing the problem? I can't be counted on to support a President who tells me we are in mortal danger and that we must win this fight when his actions and lack there of are not conducive to same?

What you are saying is that the guard was turned, long ago, into a support unit force in order to cut costs. I understand that. They're doing jobs that are necessary in war time. I understand that.

Whatever news that is or is not to me, it is not news to people like yourself on up the chain all the way to the Whitehouse. It is now nearly summer 2007, some 4 full years since we invaded Iraq, almost 4 1/2 since we invaded Afghanistan. It is almost 6 full years since 9/11. The President can not tell me it is going to be a long, tough battle and then do nothing to build the force to sustain that fight.

We have contracted out support services, including soldier jobs like guarding things, in numbers well above 100,000. We've strained the guard. We've strained the active military. Our President had things his way, including both Houses for much of this time. He had huge support from the American people.

Just tell me things are as good as they should be and I'll shut up. Just tell me they are close or even reasonable close to what should be happening to support his leadership and explain it, and I'll shut up. I'm not the one making glaring opportunities for people like forestal.

 

[awpitt]

It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what drives the size of the military. The military is not shrinking because of recruiting problems. The decrease has been mandated by congress, and the President has done nothing to reverse the decrease.

There is a lot of information available about how our government and our military actually work, and what the role of congress is. You should consider reading up a little bit.

Having been in the military or closely associated with it for the past twenty-four years, I’ve done plenty of reading and am fully aware of the processes involved. The fact is, if recruitment goals are not being met, that is not a good thing regardless of what levels are mandated by Congress or the President. If the mandated levels are too low and the recruitment levels are still not being met that’s even worse.