The farrier Angus White...

[lnmarsh]

...will never be touching my horse EVER again.

I just bought a 4 y/o Morgan gelding (Toby) that I am boarding in Owings, MD. Hes only been there for about 2 weeks and needed to have his feet done so I jumped on the list of horses at the barn that were being done yesterday. I was told that everyone there uses Angus White. I normally use Dave Crockett but he wont come to Calvert anymore and I dont have a horse trailer right now, but since I recognized Angus' name I figured whattheh3ll, ittl work for now. Well I remembered why I recognized his name.... Because I used him years ago and HATED him. Yesterday was just a reminder...

1.) He charged me $90 for a trim and front shoes (plates)
2.) He was S-L-O-W
3.) He tried to tell me that Toby’s right front foot is "clubby," which its not. At all.
4.) I told him I wanted some length of toe left on Toby’s front feet. He literally laughed at me and lopped off all Toby's toe.
5.) A lady at the barn asked how long Toby's shoes had been on and I said "6 weeks." Angus looked at me, laughed and said "these shoes have been on for longer than 6 weeks." Ok, first off - I know for a FACT that Toby has had the shoes on for just over 6 weeks. Second - They are barely worn down! You can look at them and tell they’re not old.
6.) Angus hit Toby with the rasp. Now mind you, Toby isnt great about his feet, but hes not naughty. He is only 4 and has only had shoes on for a little over a year, so hes not exactly used to it yet. His biggest thing is he dosnt understand that he is supposed to hold his foot up for you. But he dosnt kick, etc. Well I guess Angus got frustrated at Toby's squirming and so he hit him in the gut with his rasp. Hard. OMG I was p1ssed... Toby FREAKED out, almost ran me over, and was wide-eyed and snorty for the rest of the session. All I could think was "Great. Now he's going to be afraid of the farrier."

I didnt say anything at the time because I didnt want Angus to stop in the middle of the job and leave my horse with uneven feet/one shoe left on, etc. Now I am not normally like this... usually if someone provides a service for me, whether I think it was perfect or not, I pay up. They did they job, they deserve the money. But not this time... I was seriously considering putting a stop payment on the check I wrote Angus. But I dont want that to cause issues between him and the owner of the barn (and subsequently all the boarders).

If anyone reading this uses Angus and likes his work, then that’s fine. A lot of the other girls/ladies at the barn seem to like him and the work he does. But I say “to each their own.” I feel like he charged me $90 for mediocre work (at best), ignoring my requests, false information and a slap on my horse’s gut with a big metal object. My time, money, and horse is worth more than that. I wont be using Angus EVER again.

 

[fredsaid2]

Can't quite remember what I paid for fronts but $90 doesn't sound off.

Weren't you looking for a farrier experienced w/ Morgans?

Hoof growth would indicate to him how long the shoes were on, not the wear. Typically shoes are re-set for the next cycle. I'm sure you know this already.

I'm ok w/ discipline within reason. Owners owe our service professionals animals with manners. Is it possible you needed to have spent more time on ground training? Just a thought...

 

[highnote]

I used angus once and only once. Won't ever use him again. It was a barefoot trim only, but my horse was sore-footed for weeks afterward.

On another note, I think it will be hard to find a farrier that won't "discipline" the horse with the rasp. On one hand, I think a good farrier would find another method of discipline (not hitting with a sharp metal object). But on the other hand, farriers are put in very precarious positions in which their safety can be in jeapordy, and the rasp is the closest/easiest object to use for discipline (and he slapped the gut- not the head!). They don't know our horses as well as we do, so they don't know patterns of behavior, trust level, etc- plus ALL horses can be unpredictible. Personally I'd rather allow the farrier discipline a difficult horse rather than have the farrier get kicked in the head.

And of course the best way to avoid any discipline at all would be to properly train the horse (although this is often easier said than done- especially with certain breeds and temperaments).

Maybe someday our local farriers will use parelli, lions, anderson, ttouch, palm, or clicker techniques in leiu of physical discipline. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Duckz]

I don't know about Angus in particular, but when my old TB was three or four the farrier lost patience and kicked him HARD in the belly. My TB was never great for the farrier (especially after that!!) but some handled the situation much better than others. It always made it 100 times worse to haul off and hit him. I feel for you lnmarsh. A good, kind farrier is worth his/her weight in gold especially with a young or fussy horse. I hope you find someone who works for you

 

[lnmarsh]

Can't quite remember what I paid for fronts but $90 doesn't sound off.

Weren't you looking for a farrier experienced w/ Morgans?

Hoof growth would indicate to him how long the shoes were on, not the wear. Typically shoes are re-set for the next cycle. I'm sure you know this already.

I'm ok w/ discipline within reason. Owners owe our service professionals animals with manners. Is it possible you needed to have spent more time on ground training? Just a thought...

I was looking for a farrier experienced with Morgans, but 1.) Toby needed to have his big “show shoes” pulled since he wont be shown until next year, 2.) he has already thrown a rear shoe, and 3.) I figured pulling shoes, a trim, and plates was something any ol’ farrier could handle. The whole “looking for a Morgan farrier” thing was primarily for show season. But I will be getting Toby’s show shoes put on him either at shows, or I will trailer him to a facility where a more knowledgeable farrier services.

I agree with the hoof growth vs. shoe wear being a indication for the length of time in which the shoes were on. But let me back up for a minute… for a Morgan being shown in Hunter Pleasure, the USEF regulations is a maximum length of 5 inches including pad and shoe. Toby’s feet were right at that mark when he was shown during the end of June. So I am assuming that Angus is not used to a length like that, so he was assuming that Toby’s feet were so “long” because they hadn’t been done recently. When in reality, his feet were “long” on purpose.

As far as ground training goes – Toby is a 4 y/o that I have had for just over two weeks. Not only have I not had enough time with him to truly work on ground manners, but he is still a baby who wants to look at everything. Could he had stood a little more still? Yes, most definitely. Its something we’re working on. But he was not being naughty for Angus by any means… he just wasn’t standing statue-still. I had a chain over his nose and was correcting him when needed. Angus should not have hit him with the rasp. If he had used his hand, then fine. But I have an issue with him using the rasp.

I used angus once and only once. Won't ever use him again. It was a barefoot trim only, but my horse was sore-footed for weeks afterward.

On another note, I think it will be hard to find a farrier that won't "discipline" the horse with the rasp. On one hand, I think a good farrier would find another method of discipline (not hitting with a sharp metal object). But on the other hand, farriers are put in very precarious positions in which their safety can be in jeapordy, and the rasp is the closest/easiest object to use for discipline (and he slapped the gut- not the head!). They don't know our horses as well as we do, so they don't know patterns of behavior, trust level, etc- plus ALL horses can be unpredictible. Personally I'd rather allow the farrier discipline a difficult horse rather than have the farrier get kicked in the head.

And of course the best way to avoid any discipline at all would be to properly train the horse (although this is often easier said than done- especially with certain breeds and temperaments).

Maybe someday our local farriers will use parelli, lions, anderson, ttouch, palm, or clicker techniques in leiu of physical discipline. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Oh I am going to be so mad if Angus made his feet sore…

And I have never, EVER had a farrier correct a horse with a rasp. With their hand, yes. But NEVER with a rasp… I personally find that unacceptable. Especially seeing as since Toby wasn’t being naughty (and really dosnt have a mean bone in his body), Angus wasn’t in immediate danger. I’ve handled horses who were truly naughty for a farrier and Ill be the first to not only warn the farrier, but also sedate a horse if I feel someone is in danger. This was not the case with Toby. And I agree – I have no issues with a farrier disciplining a horse. But within reason. The use of a rasp as a beatin’ stick is unacceptable.

Again, I agree with “the best way to avoid any discipline at all would be to properly train the horse (although this is often easier said than done- especially with certain breeds and temperaments).” But like I said above, Ive had Toby for under two weeks. I havnt had the time to invest in him, ya know? Also, he is only 4. He is still young and inexperienced. And, hes a Morgan. Anyone who has every been around them will vouch that they are typically more wired than say a QH for example.

Overall, I agree with both of you that ground manners are paramount. It is something I am working on with Toby. I just feel that not only did Angus really show how much he truly dosnt know by saying Toby has a club foot and that his shoes had been on for 8+ weeks, but he also really showed his @$$ by hitting Toby with a rasp.

 

[lnmarsh]

I don't know about Angus in particular, but when my old TB was three or four the farrier lost patience and kicked him HARD in the belly. My TB was never great for the farrier (especially after that!!) but some handled the situation much better than others. It always made it 100 times worse to haul off and hit him. I feel for you lnmarsh. A good, kind farrier is worth his/her weight in gold especially with a young or fussy horse. I hope you find someone who works for you

Thanks, Duckz! I've had horses scarred for life over bad farriers, too. Never a good thing.

I will be finding a way to have Dave Crockett do Toby from now on. Ive used him for years and not only is he one of the most kind-hearted people Ive ever met, but he is fantastic with horses in general, young, old, fussy, hurt, etc. And he has Morgans so he knows how they are... and also how to do Morgan "show shoes" Either that, or Ill trailer to where Mike Poe will come to. I've personally never used Mike, but I've heard wonderful things and he knows how to do show shoes!!!

Thanks for the love!

 

[highnote]

The use of a rasp as a beatin’ stick is unacceptable.

I totally agree. I wasn't advocating it... just saying that most farriers around here will do it if the horse acts up. Most of my comments (about training etc) were generalizations, not aimed at you in particular. I understand you've only had him 2 weeks and cant be expected to have him fully trained, or even know what kind of behavior to expect from him. I've owned horses in the past that would surprise me with how bad they acted when the farrier arrived, even though they knew full well not to even dare try that with me (and never exhibited those behaviors until the farrier started working on them, even if I simulated the same scenario with my own hoof stand, rasp, etc for training).

PS. I still wouldnt consider a quick slap on the belly the same thing as "using the rasp as a beating stick"...

 

[highnote]

I also think there needs to be a different approach for horses that are acting "bad" and those that are "frightened". Physical discipline for an already frightened horse always makes it 100 times worse. But for horses that know better, and are choosing to act badly (especially in a way that puts people in danger) I think discipline DOES help. You need to know WHY the horse is acting up before go disciplining them, as the method needs to be appropriate for the circumstance.

The first time the farrier hit my horse with a rasp I was appalled (plus he hit her in the leg- and drew blood!!). That was over 10 years ago and that farrier is never touching my horses again. The second time (different farrier) I was mad, but somewhat understood why the farrier did it (but still didn't think it was entirely necessary). The third time (different farrier yet again) happened when my horse almost hurt him, and that time I was glad he did it. The horse KNEW better and chose to act stupid, and the fact that the horse felt an immediate consequence made her think twice about doing it again. There was no blood, no bruising, no abuse... just a lesson learned (for the horse).

So although I think physical discipline might be acceptable in "some" circumstances, I wasn't there and can't speak to your particular experience. I am suggesting you look at it from the farrier's perspective and be thankful the farrier wasn't hurt. Even if your horse wasn't acting terrible, horses that won't stand still do put farriers at risk when they are standing underneath them.

 

[Robin]

I used Angus Whyte many years ago.
He was always good with my horses.
I had a p-i t a stud colt and 2 very at times unruley TBs He never lost his patience and scolded me once when I shanked a mare.
Circumtances change.
I would not want to be under neath a horse that could potentially cause me or anyone else harm
Horses correct each other in the field.

 

[Busterduck]

I used Angus Whyte many years ago.
He was always good with my horses.
I had a p-i t a stud colt and 2 very at times unruley TBs He never lost his patience and scolded me once when I shanked a mare.
Circumtances change.
I would not want to be under neath a horse that could potentially cause me or anyone else harm
Horses correct each other in the field.

I have never had a farrier hit my horses . . EVER. It would be totally unacceptable to me as well. It is nice to see Dave Crockett is still at it. He use to be my farrier about 20 years ago. He was always gentle with my horses. Now, I use Richard Victor and he has NEVER, EVER hit one of my horses. He is very patient and does a fantastic job. I even had a foal with contracted tendons and Richard came over every two weeks and corrected those tendons with frequent trims. You couldn't tell that my horse ever had an issue.

 

[HeavyChevy75]

I never have had a farrier hit my horses either.

Richard Victor is my farrier and he is so patient with the horses. My young one is still very unsure about having his feet touched. He was patient with him.

 

[Sparks]

I have known and used Angus for MANY years. I would consider him one of the best in the area. For me personally he's never been slow or rough with my horses, but mine are all very well mannered.

It's not the farrier's job to teach your horse to stand.

In my experience, most farriers don't like being told what to do or how to do it. They are the professional. If you know as much, then you should shoe your own horse.

I've had bad experiences in the past with a different farrier. He and I just did not work out and that's fine, but I didn't blast his name and bad mouth him over the net. I even recommended that particular farrier to other friends that I thought he'd work well for and they are still happy with him.

To each his own, you can't please everybody.

 

[lnmarsh]

I used Angus Whyte many years ago.
He was always good with my horses.
I had a p-i t a stud colt and 2 very at times unruley TBs He never lost his patience and scolded me once when I shanked a mare.
Circumtances change.
I would not want to be under neath a horse that could potentially cause me or anyone else harm
Horses correct each other in the field.

I’m honestly glad Angus was good for your horses. He was not good for mine (past and present). Nor for my friend’s horse, also Morgan. Anytime you are around horses there is the potential to get hurt… it comes with the business. And yes of course horses correct each other in the field. But we as HUMANS are a higher power than horses and should not use large metal objects to correct them… Like I said before if Angus had used his hand on Toby, I wouldn’t have been so angry. But a rasp? Why not use a 2”x4” or a friggin baseball bat? Im just saying... :shrug:

I have never had a farrier hit my horses . . EVER. It would be totally unacceptable to me as well. It is nice to see Dave Crockett is still at it. He use to be my farrier about 20 years ago. He was always gentle with my horses. Now, I use Richard Victor and he has NEVER, EVER hit one of my horses. He is very patient and does a fantastic job. I even had a foal with contracted tendons and Richard came over every two weeks and corrected those tendons with frequent trims. You couldn't tell that my horse ever had an issue.

I will discipline a horse (chain over nose, swat with my hand, etc) if there is a REASON…i.e. the horse is being NAUGHTY. I don’t like to do it, but Im not beyond doing it. I’ve had a farrier “hit” my horse before. It was really more of a tap on her shoulder to get her attention. That dosnt bother me at all… but hitting with a rasp does. And yes, Davey is still at it! He is amazing. I really wish he still came to Calvert County but I know it’s a hellofa drive for him.

Now, I use Richard Victor and he has NEVER, EVER hit one of my horses. He is very patient and does a fantastic job. I even had a foal with contracted tendons and Richard came over every two weeks and corrected those tendons with frequent trims. You couldn't tell that my horse ever had an issue.

I never have had a farrier hit my horses either.

Richard Victor is my farrier and he is so patient with the horses. My young one is still very unsure about having his feet touched. He was patient with him.

I’ve never heard of Richard Victor, but at this point Im considering all options. Do you know if he comes to Calvert and/or if he is accepting new clients?

I have known and used Angus for MANY years. I would consider him one of the best in the area. For me personally he's never been slow or rough with my horses, but mine are all very well mannered.

It's not the farrier's job to teach your horse to stand.

In my experience, most farriers don't like being told what to do or how to do it. They are the professional. If you know as much, then you should shoe your own horse.

I've had bad experiences in the past with a different farrier. He and I just did not work out and that's fine, but I didn't blast his name and bad mouth him over the net. I even recommended that particular farrier to other friends that I thought he'd work well for and they are still happy with him.

To each his own, you can't please everybody.

First off, I completely agree that its not the farrier’s job to teach my horse to stand still. BUT, I have only had him 2 weeks. I haven’t even had the time to teach him! And he is obviously inexperienced with the farrier. The WORST thing a farrier can do with an inexperienced horse is hit him…

I have NEVER had a farrier argue with me when I said I want something specific done. I simply said that I want some length of toe left. That’s not a hard request. Angus is obviously unfamiliar with how to shoe a Morgan show horse with USEF regulations. Which is fine. But when a paying client gives a specific order/request, I believe it should be followed.

Am I “blasting” or “bad mouthing” Angus? I don’t think so… Im saying that I had a bad experience, on top of a bad experience YEARS ago, and that Ill never use him again. What, is it OK for me to talk highly about Dave Crockett but not Ok to report a bad experience with Angus just because hes YOUR farrier?

Like you said… to each his own. I’ve talked to people (like yourself) who like Angus. And that’s fine. Please, continue using him. Because he certainly dosnt have my business.

I really didn’t want to pick or start fights, but don’t jump as me because I reported a bad experience with someone you like. I was simply reporting a bad experience. No where did I say "DONT USE ANGUS HE SUCKS!" He simply isnt my cup of tea and I explained why.

 

[Sparks]

No where did I say "DONT USE ANGUS HE SUCKS!" He simply isnt my cup of tea and I explained why.

Actually, yes, your whole post says this. If it was just a case of "he isn't your cup of tea" you wouldn't have posted it on an internet BB.

Not that I think your post will affect his business in any way whatsoever, I still found it offensive and a little immature.

I hope you are able to find a morgan farrier. Good luck.

 

[JCStar]

Thanks, Duckz! I've had horses scarred for life over bad farriers, too. Never a good thing.

I will be finding a way to have Dave Crockett do Toby from now on. Ive used him for years and not only is he one of the most kind-hearted people Ive ever met, but he is fantastic with horses in general, young, old, fussy, hurt, etc. And he has Morgans so he knows how they are... and also how to do Morgan "show shoes" Either that, or Ill trailer to where Mike Poe will come to. I've personally never used Mike, but I've heard wonderful things and he knows how to do show shoes!!!

Thanks for the love!

I used Dave Crockett for my Morgan X for years - and then we moved to Davidsonville and a barn that had a regular ferrier come in....expensive but good. We are now are back in Calvert County and it has literally been two years of trials for a new ferrier - a real soap opera. I loved Dave - but he wouldn't come out this far. I also had Mike Poe - who is super incredible and got my boys feet perfect again after a butchering by a particularly yucky accident and subsequent ferrier job. But he now teaches at UMD and "dropped" me because I was so far out for him - and the only client at my barn. BUMMER!

I have a new ferrier now who I am pleased with - but I'm usure of her knowlege of Morgan show shoes.....Best of luck. I would never tolerate a ferrier manhandling my horse - he is probably one of the best, most calm boys when it comes to his feet. But it wasn't always this way - in his younger years he was "antsy" but a kind-hearted ferrier, like Dave Crocket and Mike Poe, easily calmed his nerves and today, because of them, he is a ferriers dream.

 

[lnmarsh]

I used Dave Crockett for my Morgan X for years - and then we moved to Davidsonville and a barn that had a regular ferrier come in....expensive but good. We are now are back in Calvert County and it has literally been two years of trials for a new ferrier - a real soap opera. I loved Dave - but he wouldn't come out this far. I also had Mike Poe - who is super incredible and got my boys feet perfect again after a butchering by a particularly yucky accident and subsequent ferrier job. But he now teaches at UMD and "dropped" me because I was so far out for him - and the only client at my barn. BUMMER!

I have a new ferrier now who I am pleased with - but I'm usure of her knowlege of Morgan show shoes.....Best of luck. I would never tolerate a ferrier manhandling my horse - he is probably one of the best, most calm boys when it comes to his feet. But it wasn't always this way - in his younger years he was "antsy" but a kind-hearted ferrier, like Dave Crocket and Mike Poe, easily calmed his nerves and today, because of them, he is a ferriers dream.

Yea I literally cried when David said he wouldnt come this far anymore I love him lol. The same thing happened to the boarders at my barn with Mike - they got dropped. But apperently if you will trailer your horse to a facility within his "servicing area," he'll do the job. Just FYI.

If you dont mind releasing the information, would you PM me the contact info for your current farrier? Toby will need to have his shoes pulled and a trim in 6 weeks... No "shoe shoes" knowledge required - he'll be barefoot for winter. For this I really just want a good, kind farrier who will recognize the fact that he's green to having his feet done (and like your boy was in his younger years, is "antsy") and who will also do a good job on his feet. If I like her, Ill schedule her for all my winter work, regular trims and re-sets of show shoes, etc.

 

[fredsaid2]

Farrier...not ferrier!

 

[lovemyber135]

...will never be touching my horse EVER again.

I just bought a 4 y/o Morgan gelding (Toby) that I am boarding in Owings, MD. Hes only been there for about 2 weeks and needed to have his feet done so I jumped on the list of horses at the barn that were being done yesterday. I was told that everyone there uses Angus White. I normally use Dave Crockett but he wont come to Calvert anymore and I dont have a horse trailer right now, but since I recognized Angus' name I figured whattheh3ll, ittl work for now. Well I remembered why I recognized his name.... Because I used him years ago and HATED him. Yesterday was just a reminder...

1.) He charged me $90 for a trim and front shoes (plates)
2.) He was S-L-O-W
3.) He tried to tell me that Toby’s right front foot is "clubby," which its not. At all.
4.) I told him I wanted some length of toe left on Toby’s front feet. He literally laughed at me and lopped off all Toby's toe.
5.) A lady at the barn asked how long Toby's shoes had been on and I said "6 weeks." Angus looked at me, laughed and said "these shoes have been on for longer than 6 weeks." Ok, first off - I know for a FACT that Toby has had the shoes on for just over 6 weeks. Second - They are barely worn down! You can look at them and tell they’re not old.
6.) Angus hit Toby with the rasp. Now mind you, Toby isnt great about his feet, but hes not naughty. He is only 4 and has only had shoes on for a little over a year, so hes not exactly used to it yet. His biggest thing is he dosnt understand that he is supposed to hold his foot up for you. But he dosnt kick, etc. Well I guess Angus got frustrated at Toby's squirming and so he hit him in the gut with his rasp. Hard. OMG I was p1ssed... Toby FREAKED out, almost ran me over, and was wide-eyed and snorty for the rest of the session. All I could think was "Great. Now he's going to be afraid of the farrier."

I didnt say anything at the time because I didnt want Angus to stop in the middle of the job and leave my horse with uneven feet/one shoe left on, etc. Now I am not normally like this... usually if someone provides a service for me, whether I think it was perfect or not, I pay up. They did they job, they deserve the money. But not this time... I was seriously considering putting a stop payment on the check I wrote Angus. But I dont want that to cause issues between him and the owner of the barn (and subsequently all the boarders).

If anyone reading this uses Angus and likes his work, then that’s fine. A lot of the other girls/ladies at the barn seem to like him and the work he does. But I say “to each their own.” I feel like he charged me $90 for mediocre work (at best), ignoring my requests, false information and a slap on my horse’s gut with a big metal object. My time, money, and horse is worth more than that. I wont be using Angus EVER again.

ive seen horses at linden farms been beat with a rasp and they were never the same after that!!! but my horse has very good ground manners so she never got beat thankfully...but personally i dont like angus very much thats why i havent used him at all since i have been on my own im really not impressed with his work...at linden i literally didnt have a choice (angus didnt work there)...i would try calling spencer bottoms maybe, hes my farrier and very patient ive used him for a good while and have never seen him touch a horse like that...and i think it was just fine to tell him what you wanted not cause you were being a no it all but because you knew what needed to be done for a show horse...and angus prob. didnt know that your horse was about to be a big time show horse next yr. when your morgan farrier is going to have to fix what angus not nessesarily ruined but kinda messed up what you were going for...

 

[DQ2B]

I'm curious why you didn't express your concerns to him after the job was finished at least since you say you didn't want to say anything mid-job for fear of the job not being finished or finshed inappropriately...

 

[DQ2B]

FYI, Katrina Ranum is an excellent barefoot-only "farrier". She doesn't come cheap so she may not be what you're looking for as the $90 for two front shoes seemed to be too high for you but she's in AA county.