The GOP's TITANIC Shiavo mistake...

[Larry Gude]

...you read it here first. This going WAY overboard to 'save' Terri Shiavo is a huge mistake for the GOP for 3 reasons.

1. HYSTERICS: We have pure hysteria going on over this. People are MAKING up allegations about Michael Schiavo to get their way. The legislature and the judiciary are being treated like fortune cookies; keep cracking until you find the one you like.

THIS IS NOT WHAT WE DO. We do not pretend the apocolypse is upon us. We do NOT allow emotion to trump reason. We do not lie to get our way.


2. LAW: We are mauling states rights on an issue that could NOT be clearer AS a states right; responsibility for a disabled spouse. If, somehow, this maddness prevails, the Federal government will have established domain over the most intimate details of marriage. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT???

To make it worse, the simple facts are that this case has got all due process in Florida and then some and then some more and there is nothing, nothing to argue about. IT'S UP TO HIM. Let Florida change the law later if they choose.


3. REASON: The ends is being used to justify the means. Modern Lib 101.

When all this settles down and all the facts and the timeline are digested, when the hysterical go home, the facts will remain; Michael acted in good faith for his wife for a long time. He didn't 'deny' anything until it was obvious to him and the medical professionals that no more could be done. Nothing was left but miracles. This man says he his trying to honor his wifes wishes and no one has or can credibly dispute that. So, he is being crucified because of a lack of faith. He is presumed guilty lacking ONE shred of evidence.

He moved his in laws in with himself and Terri for TWO years. There is not one allegation of any kind of trouble at all between Terri and Michael UNTIL the last few years. How in the hell do you live with your son in law for TWO years caring for your invalid daughter and then, some what, 5-6 years later start alledging ill motives, lack of care and even MURDER????


This is sad, this is embarrassing. This is WRONG.

 

[sleuth]

I'm inclined to agree with you.
I'm disappointed in Bush and the GOP on this one.

 

[morganj614]

I have given up on the truth, I see one conflicting story after another. It all changes every day and I am confused. I go back to the original story I heard about her being in this condition from anorexia and bulemia and the side effects. Messing up ones electrolytes creates havoc, as in the case of Karen Carpenter and Terri Schiavo. The irony was she is/was being kept alive by a feeding tube when all she wanted to do was starve herself.
Now we have Patricia Heaton (Everybody Loves Raymond) comparing Michael Schiavo to Hitler in her interview last night. She didn't live with them, she knows nothing except what Terri's family has told her and she gets air time to say what she wants. I guess this is my air time since I am not a star.
I hope the law stays out of this, I hope family privacy isn't invaded, I hope this has caused everyone to make a living will and I hope Terri has a quick and peaceful passing. Shame on everyone that dragged this out, from family to the President.

 

[Kizzy]

To make it worse, the simple facts are that this case has got all due process in Florida and then some and then some more and there is nothing, nothing to argue about. IT'S UP TO HIM. Let Florida change the law later if they choose.

I do agree with this. I think the steps they are taking now, are too extreme.

 

[Ken King]

Let’s look at the law, Florida law as I agree that it is a state’s right issue.

First let us see how the state defines “persistent vegetative state”, which can be found in Florida Statute 765.101. It says, “Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:
(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.”

Eyes open, head moving, grunting and groaning does not seem to hold with what I would say is unconsciousness.

Now let’s look at the rights of the incapacitated because that is something that I would agree as a proper category for her. We find the statute covering that at 744.3215 and it says, “(1) A person who has been determined to be incapacitated retains the right
(i) To receive necessary services and rehabilitation.”

How about allowing Terri to die as a matter of mercy? Check 765.309 and it says, “Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized; suicide distinguished. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.”

If you consider the deliberate denial of food and water as a natural process of dying I would be in shock as there is nothing natural about that. Those killed by the state are treated better then this as are many animals that are destroyed.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'm disappointed in Bush and the GOP on this one.

I agree. Jeb Bush was invited by Michael Schiavo to come and visit Terri and see for himself before he got involved, but he didn't do it. He just started going off based on what the parents have said and those little video snippets.

 

[rraley]

Larry, I completely agree with you on this one.

Quite honestly it is an outrage to me that this issue was taken up by the United States Congress after Tom DeLay and Bill Frist decided that it was time to stand up for "life" and to excite their conservative base. This whole ordeal smacks of politics from Frist and DeLay (Jeb Bush I can understand more) and they should be downright ashamed of themselves. Frist is not silent about his presidential ambition and he knows that these fringe "right to life" folks are very powerful in the Republican primaries. Meanwhile, Tom DeLay has been in the papers recently more for his shady ethics dealings than for any legislation. Perhaps jumping on this bandwagon would make his bad news go off the front pages. All the while these men hide behind "life" and God to justify their use of hysterics. Quite a shame.

This is absolutely a states' right case. This case has been appealed twenty-three times and just because the executive and legislative branch do not like the outcome of that decision, they cannot seek to overturn it. That is a terrible violation of the separation of powers. And those decisions were not coming from "activist" judges or "renegade" judges. The 11th Circuit, which Florida is a part of, is a conservative court and they voted 10-2 to not hear an appeal. Due process has been exhausted and exhausted and exhausted again.

Now what response does Jeb Bush have for a judicial decision he does not like: I'm going to take custody of Terri Schiavo. Purely tasteless: taking a private woman with parents, siblings, and a husband and turning her into a national spectacle. This is something that no one would seek and I feel absolutely awful that some politicians would jump on this pony and ride it out. This was a private matter that state courts have jurisdiction over. Shame on those in the media and those in politics who blew this out of proportion.

What we have all seen here is another example of the major parties pandering to fringe elements within their party rather than the general public. This case involves violating the principles of that party and involves the use of an innocent woman for political gain...again I say, tasteless.

Sorry, anger over this "issue" has boiled over. Returning to normal, thoughtful rraley mode.

 

[willie]

There is so much disinformation on her situation that who can know what laws are being ignored? It seems very basic that if you withhold nourishment, you are taking a life. With a basic right to live, why would this even be a state matter? Every citizen of the country should have the same right. Gun laws, speed limits, drinking age and all that personal freedoms type stuff belong to the state but your right to live should be consistent throughout the country.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Can we see a pattern here? The federal government "do gooders" take yet one more states' rights issue and squash the Consitution one more time in the "name of good". Far too many unconstitutional actions and laws have been taken by the federal government in the name of "doing good". Big Brother just wants to help. Big Brother wouldn't do anything to hurt you. yadayadayada

 

[Ken King]

Now what response does Jeb Bush have for a judicial decision he does not like: I'm going to take custody of Terri Schiavo. Purely tasteless: taking a private woman with parents, siblings, and a husband and turning her into a national spectacle. This is something that no one would seek and I feel absolutely awful that some politicians would jump on this pony and ride it out. This was a private matter that state courts have jurisdiction over. Shame on those in the media and those in politics who blew this out of proportion.

Rraley,

What is the job of Governor JEB? Is it not to enforce the laws of the state? They have laws that cover her predicament and as such isn’t he bound to insure that they are adhered to? That is what I think he is doing. We might not agree with how Florida conducts their business and the laws they have on the books but that should be what controls this case and nothing more. The removal of the feeding tube and denial of sustaining nutrition and water violates Florida law and the Governor is within legal bounds to have the Protective Services step in and take control no matter what the court has decided. You know it isn’t like this is the first time we have seen the courts of Florida attempt to legislate from the bench.

 

[vraiblonde]

What is the job of Governor JEB? Is it not to enforce the laws of the state?

YES! And the LAW says that, in the event that a person cannot speak for themselves, their SPOUSE speaks legally for them. Not the parents - the SPOUSE. And the SPOUSE says that 13 years is long enough to keep his wife a vegetable in a hospital bed with no hope of recovery.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

“Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized; suicide distinguished. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.”

So, where does Florida, repeatedly, recognize the husbands right and responsibility to speak for her? The courts have stated that, per Michael, she did not wish to be kept in this condition?

The way I read that passage, it doesn't matter if Terri had it written on her forehead in her own hand and notorized; she has no right to die 'un-natrually' in Florida.

Christ. First Lottery's running a scam and now this? Do you do nothing but dig up trouble???

Good find. Unless there is something to counter this, there is no right to die in Florida.

Agreed?

 

[vraiblonde]

This is like that Elian Gonzales crap where the Republicans were trying to keep that kid in the US AGAINST his father's wishes. What's up with these people? They try to usurp parental rights, now they're trying to usurp marital rights.

This is just wrong.

 

[vraiblonde]

permit the natural process of dying

BEING FED WITH A TUBE IS NOT NATURAL

 

[Pete]

Boy let me watch the news a few nights during the week and we have had some pretty good discussions about this.

I am still on the fence. I look at him and try to even hypothesize what I would do and I can't.

 

[Ken King]

Vrai,

What you say is true as it follows the "proxy" considerations of their laws, next in order are adult children, then her parents and then siblings. However, and this is big, if the person appointed guardian and making the decisions neglects to provide all necessary and required care to sustain life such as food and water then Protective Services, by law, must step in and see that those services are provided. That is their law, not mine.

For a time Michael Schiavo was doing exactly that, matter of fact he did it for over eight years, even if we disagree as to the voracity of his effort, he was complying with the law. Florida doesn't say that you have to provide adequate care for only a certain length of time and then you can chose to halt it. That provision doesn't exist within the statutes.

 

[Larry Gude]

Wtf?

Larry

What happened to Uncle?

Jeez. Give a kid an inch....(old Jackson family saying)

 

[Ken King]

BEING FED WITH A TUBE IS NOT NATURAL

Starving and not giving water is proper care of an indigent family member?

 

[Ken King]

What happened to Uncle?

Jeez. Give a kid an inch....(old Jackson family saying)

Now that was funny.

 

[Larry Gude]

Nephew...

Quite honestly it is an outrage to me that this issue was taken up by the United States Congress after Tom DeLay and Bill Frist decided that it was time to stand up for "life" and to excite their conservative base. This whole ordeal smacks of politics

You need to check that tone at the door. There will ALWAYS be politics associated with anything 'political', ie done by congress and or the Pres and if you're going to judge this strictly from what you see as Delays standpoint, pure politics only, and deny good faith on the part of the vast majority of conservatives and others worrie by this issue, then you'd better be prepared to have every single thing your guys EVER do similiarly dismissed.

My point was not about the politics per se, but the behavior and the judgement itself.

Had they made Kens point about Florida law as I have NOT heard them make, then that is another shade of gray tossed into this mess.

It has been expressed time and again that the husband had the right and responsibility to make the call for her. Never has it been said that there was one thing he could not do.

Now, that DOES bring the feds back into play because I think there MUST be an individuals right to die, to refuse treatment, trumping the states role. I think most would agree with that.

This case is a supurb public discusion!